Did Shae ever really love Tyrion?

[calmyourwits]

I think not. She was always asking about her silks and jewelry. She's doing all that for Tyrion in exchange of well, something a whore will dream of.. riches :P

[Lady Isobel]

No she never cared for him one bit. I think her relationship with Tyrion was Tywin's plan so he could use her as a spy, given the fact that Tyrion very cleverly kept his guard up most of the time but unfortunately for him really needed to feel loved and accepted using her as a bait would make a good plan. The fact that Tywin kept insisting that Tyrion shouldn't bring his whore to Court makes me wonder if he wasn't just trying to make him do the opposite thing (given their antagonistic relationship). Also the fact that she ended up in Tywin's bed is something that I find odd if there wasn't a previous connection between them.

[Beathag]

I don't watch the show because I do not want their appearances and actions to affect what I read in the books. Maybe later.

I think Bronn went looking for a bedwarmer for Tyrion. Tywin heard of it, and dispatched Shae. Bronn says he took Shae from a Lannister, but not which Lannister. So Shae at least was paid by Tywin to snuggle up to Tyrion and pass on what he was doing/thinking in KL while Tywin was out fighting.

Bronn may have been paid off as well. I cannot parse that out. Interesting that he named his "son of a thousand fathers" Tywin.

In short, no, Shae never loved Tyrion. She was well-paid to play the part and then make a fool of him in the trial (allusions to Shay). Tywin was her giant (and sugar daddy) of a Lannister.

[mormont]

I think Bronn went looking for a bedwarmer for Tyrion. Tywin heard of it, and dispatched Shae.

How or why would Tywin 'hear of it'? Tyrion certainly didn't tell him, so the only way Tywin could have 'heard of it' was from Bronn. I can hardly imagine that Tywin decided to give an audience to a common sellsword who wanted to tell him that Tyrion had sent him out to look for a whore. And if he did, for what earthly reason would Tywin's reaction be 'yeah, give him this one, who is a spy that works for me and I just happen to have handy' instead of 'tell him I said no whores'?

Even if Tywin could somehow have heard of it from someone else, he'd have to suborn Bronn to plant Shae. So this scenario imagines that not only Shae, but also Bronn, have been working for Tywin and lying to Tyrion about it all along. But if this is the case, why does Tywin need two spies watching Tyrion? We'd also have to assume that all that stuff about Tyrion besmirching the honour of the Lannisters with his whoring was misdirection, all part of some cunning plan to do... what? Spy on Tyrion? There has to be a simpler way to do that.

The notion that Shae was planted by Tywin from the start is a good deal more complicated than the alternatives. I don't think it's very credible.

Bronn says he took Shae from a Lannister

No, he doesn't.

Bronn may have been paid off as well. I cannot parse that out. Interesting that he named his "son of a thousand fathers" Tywin.

No, he didn't. He named him Tyrion.

[Dragonstoned]

Just got modified.

[Katerine459]

How or why would Tywin 'hear of it'? Tyrion certainly didn't tell him, so the only way Tywin could have 'heard of it' was from Bronn. I can hardly imagine that Tywin decided to give an audience to a common sellsword who wanted to tell him that Tyrion had sent him out to look for a whore. And if he did, for what earthly reason would Tywin's reaction be 'yeah, give him this one, who is a spy that works for me and I just happen to have handy' instead of 'tell him I said no whores'?

Even if Tywin could somehow have heard of it from someone else, he'd have to suborn Bronn to plant Shae. So this scenario imagines that not only Shae, but also Bronn, have been working for Tywin and lying to Tyrion about it all along. But if this is the case, why does Tywin need two spies watching Tyrion? We'd also have to assume that all that stuff about Tyrion besmirching the honour of the Lannisters with his whoring was misdirection, all part of some cunning plan to do... what? Spy on Tyrion? There has to be a simpler way to do that.

The notion that Shae was planted by Tywin from the start is a good deal more complicated than the alternatives. I don't think it's very credible.

Personally, my view is that Bronn was always exactly who he appeared to be... a sellsword who would remain in Tyrion's employ for as long as Tyrion was winning, paid the bills, and didn't get him killed.

But I also think that, while Shae probably started out exactly as she appeared (a prostitute who was approached by Bronn to be with Tyrion), somewhere along the line, Tywin found out the truth (that Tyrion was up to his usual ways). And he paid Shae off. She was to remain with Tyrion, and gather enough dirt on him to justify Tywin publicly disowning him. Prostitutes always make the best spies, especially with Tyrion, because his normal suspicious intelligence always seems to abandon him where whores are concerned... Shae was perfect. No other spy would have been half as effective, because Tyrion would be suspicious of them.

Honestly, I can think of no other explanation for her behavior throughout GoT, CoK, and ASOS. Admittedly, I didn't see it coming (what she did at Tyrion's trial), but that's because, up until that point, I assumed she really was that stupid, selfish, and shallow. But in light of what she did to Tyrion and Sansa at the trial, and especially in the light of the fact that, after it was all over, Tyrion found Shae in Tywin's bed, it makes me view all of her behavior in a very different light. Now I realize, nobody is that stupid or shallow, especially not prostitutes who are repeatedly told that they're in danger. A far more reasonable explanation for her behavior, is that she was paid to stay close to Tyrion.

(By, "her behavior," I'm thinking of all of her behavior throughout the books, but especially her insisting on coming to the palace with him, even though 1) Tyrion was trying to tell her to leave at the time, and 2) Tyrion was telling her that if she were to come to the palace, she would have to leave behind all of the gowns and jewels he'd given her.)

ETA: Oh, and to address your other point: there are two very simple explanations for Tywin saying, "don't take that whore to court." 1) he knew perfectly well that Tyrion would take her anyway, and/or 2) Tywin wins either way. If Tyrion obeys him, then yay! Tyrion isn't embarrassing him! If Tyrion doesn't obey, then at least he will have a certain guarantee that it wouldn't affect the Lannister reputation, because if worst came to worst, he could have Shae say whatever he wanted her to say.

No, he doesn't.

No, he didn't. He named him Tyrion.

:agree:

[Lummel]

...Honestly, I can think of no other explanation for her behavior throughout GoT, CoK, and ASOS. Admittedly, I didn't see it coming (what she did at Tyrion's trial), but that's because, up until that point, I assumed she really was that stupid, selfish, and shallow. But in light of what she did to Tyrion and Sansa at the trial, and especially in the light of the fact that, after it was all over, Tyrion found Shae in Tywin's bed, it makes me view all of her behavior in a very different light. Now I realize, nobody is that stupid or shallow, especially not prostitutes who are repeatedly told that they're in danger. A far more reasonable explanation for her behavior, is that she was paid to stay close to Tyrion.

(By, "her behavior," I'm thinking of all of her behavior throughout the books, but especially her insisting on coming to the palace with him, even though 1) Tyrion was trying to tell her to leave at the time, and 2) Tyrion was telling her that if she were to come to the palace, she would have to leave behind all of the gowns and jewels he'd given her.)...

If Tywin did buy Shae's loyalty it can't have been before ASOS because he was busy fighting the war of the five kings.

I don't have a problem with Shae being stupid, because clearly she is - she's quite happy to encourage Tyrion to defy Tywin in ACOK, she doesn't appreciate how dangerous Tyrion's interest is for her health. She's also young, probably a teenager at most, uneducated and has experience of being a prostitute and a pot scrubber as a child. She knows how to survive as a prostitute but doesn't have much in the way of brain power beyond that. She's also fixated on making her way in the world and getting that marriage or a long term client that will enable her to live relatively comfortably.

Tyrion does repeatedly tell her she's in danger in ACOK, but that gets forgotten in ASOS and iirc the danger is put in terms of angry mobs, which is rather stupid on Tyrion's part. The threat to Shae only ever came from Varys one way or another.

[mormont]

I'm unconvinced by the idea that Tywin would want to 'gather dirt' on Tyrion to justify publicly disowning him, anyway.

What 'dirt', to begin with? That he uses prostitutes? It's common knowledge, and self-evidently not a justification for being disowned. Almost any other dirt concerns Tyrion's political manouevreing on behalf of his family, or would otherwise reflect badly on the Lannister name: concern for that name is, apparently, the reason why Tywin hasn't disowned Tyrion before. So it makes no sense that Tywin would be seeking some evidence of scandal to provide a justification for disowning his son. Something he can use as blackmail, then? But why? Tyrion can't simply refuse to be disowned!

So that idea makes no real sense either, so far as I can see. If Shae was working for Tywin, I can't see how it all works out.

[Katerine459]

I'm unconvinced by the idea that Tywin would want to 'gather dirt' on Tyrion to justify publicly disowning him, anyway.

What 'dirt', to begin with? That he uses prostitutes? It's common knowledge, and self-evidently not a justification for being disowned. Almost any other dirt concerns Tyrion's political manouevreing on behalf of his family, or would otherwise reflect badly on the Lannister name: concern for that name is, apparently, the reason why Tywin hasn't disowned Tyrion before. So it makes no sense that Tywin would be seeking some evidence of scandal to provide a justification for disowning his son. Something he can use as blackmail, then? But why? Tyrion can't simply refuse to be disowned!

So that idea makes no real sense either, so far as I can see. If Shae was working for Tywin, I can't see how it all works out.

This ties into the way I view Tywin, so it's getting a little off-topic of Shae, but I always saw Tywin as hating Tyrion for having been born. Not just being ashamed of him, or being disappointed, but actually hating him. He genuinely feels that Tyrion is a monster who murdered his wife (Tyrion's mother). The fact that Tyrion didn't exactly have a choice in the matter doesn't enter into it. Tyrion is not Tywin's son; he's a vile monster who murdered his mother. Tywin genuinely believes this, and has ever since Tyrion was born.

Tyrion is absolutely gobsmacked when Tywin sends him to KL to become Hand in his stead. Because that's a complete 180 of the way Tywin has behaved towards him, for Tyrion's entire life.

As a result, I immediately concluded that Tywin was somehow setting up Tyrion for failure. He wanted Tyrion to fail. He wanted that deformed monster that murdered the woman he loved, to die, to be forever put out of his sight, never to waddle into a room and remind Tywin of his wife's death, never to waddle anywhere, making japes and making people laugh at the little creature who has the gall to bear the name of "Lannister."

Perhaps the end goal wasn't to disown Tyrion. Perhaps it wasn't to get Tyrion killed. Perhaps it wasn't even nefarious at all to begin with (though I doubt it - Tywin bears Tyrion far too much malice, to not have malice at least partly account for Tywin's wanting a spy). But even if I'm wrong and it's not just malice... there are still many practical reasons to want to spy on the person who you've appointed Hand in your stead. And, again, Tyrion is naturally suspicious of everybody... except whores. He has an incredible blind spot when it comes to whores, so a whore is the obvious best choice for a spy.

[TalalOfDorne]

She never loved Tyrion (And of course didnt have to). She was just doing her "job".

[Tywin Manderly]

She never loved Tyrion (And of course didnt have to). She was just doing her "job".

This! :agree:

It was Tyrion who deluded himself.

[fatbat1987]

I dont understand why Shae would / should love Tyrion. She got a bad deal, and she only looked after herself, a whore among powerful lords and ladies.

[Inevittable]

Wow, old thread! But, I’ve not put too much thought into this subject before, so I’m very glad I read it.

I don’t think she loved him, but I think she loved the idea that she could be his and be kept by him. As others have said, she was more in love with the jewels, silks and position. Compared to her other options in life she had it pretty good until Tyrion found her in Tywin’s bed.

I think that in the show they’ve made more of a show of the love between Tyrion and Shae so that her betrayal and her murder have that much more punch. Earlier in the thread someone made a very good point about us not having the emotion from Tyrion’s inner monologues about Tysha to give us a full picture of Tyrion. However, the betrayal in that situation wasn’t Tysha’s, it was Tywin’s. The point someone made about Shae’s character development on the show, when she threatens the other handmaiden to protect Sansa, says more (I think) about her attitude towards other women than it does her attitude about love.

However, I’ll freely admit that I was completely sucked into believing that there was real love there.

After a little more thought, I think I’m almost sold on the idea that Shae was a plant by Tywin, but I’m not really sure to what end. The thoughts about him seeing his bad reflection in Tyrion seems a bit touchy-feely for a man who’s described as being very hard, emotionally. I think I could be persuaded that it was just so he could keep tabs on Tyrion, and potentially so that he had a card to play against his intellectual rival if it came to it.

[Beathag]

I think Tywin hired Shae from the very beginning. Just his very statement forbidding her to come to King's Landing was his way of insuring that Tyrion would bring her. I do think Shae had some feelings for Tyrion that grew over time, but it wasn't enough to overcome her own fears, otherwise she should have confided in Tyrion all the shenanigans going on that Tywin put her up to.

Shae only loved Tyrion the way that a junkie loves his welfare check and foodstamps. Tyrion was her milk cow, her sponsor. She loved what Tyrion was able to get her, and if she had to do some things that were disgusting to her sensibilities in order to secure her own comforts, then that's the price she had to pay to get what she wanted. When she was in the manse in King's Landing, she had no qualms about inviting the singer to perform for her, and because of that indiscretion, Tyrion had to have him offed before Joffrey's wedding. When it came down to the trial, Shae knew that there would be no way to recover the jewels and clothes that she had had to abandon when she became a maid unless she betrayed Tyrion. She probably either instigated the liaison with Tywin in hopes of being given her things back, or did not protest it when he approached her, because she had not been able to tell them where Sansa had gone and had probably thought there was no other way to get what she had felt that she had earned, and in her mind earned tenfold.

Now in regards to Tywin pulling the strings in having Shae being given to Tyrion from the beginning, I don't know if that would have been possible. She was a camp follower that Bronn had found for Tyrion, but she very well could have been hired by Tywin. She did come from Tywin's camp originally, and Tywin did know of her existence before Tyrion was sent to King's Landing, because that is why she was put into hiding. So, anything's possible....

My pet theory is that Tywin was alerted that someone in the camp was looking for a comely lass for Tyrion.

Bronn is brought before Tywin, who buys him.

Then he pulls in an incredibly nice looking Shae and buys her for Tryion. Bronn is told to tell Tyrion that he took Shae away from "some Lannister" (which he does). Shae is told to pour it on with Tyrion, and keep an eye and ear open -- there is a rich reward for her should she play her part well.

I think Tywin liked ladies of the night just as much as his father did. And it really ticked him off that he was a chip off the old Lannister block, which is why he ranted at Tyrion about it. The old hypocrite.

[mormont]

My pet theory is that Tywin was alerted that someone in the camp was looking for a comely lass for Tyrion.

I'm repeating myself, but - who? And why? This happens before Tywin tells Tyrion off for whoring, and nobody but Tyrion and Tywin know about that conversation anyway. At this point, Tyrion looking for a whore is utterly unremarkable, so far as anyone else in the camp knows: so why would anyone bring it to Tywin's attention? The camp was likely full of men looking for whores, and Tyrion was well-known for frequenting them. Did people also alert Tywin that Tyrion was looking for his dinner?

Bronn is brought before Tywin, who buys him. Then he pulls in an incredibly nice looking Shae and buys her for Tryion.

Again: why? For what purpose does Tywin need one, let alone two, spies so close to Tyrion? What is he looking for?

Bronn is told to tell Tyrion that he took Shae away from "some Lannister" (which he does).

Again: no, he doesn't. He says he took her from 'a knight'. Since the knight was in the Lannister camp, he was likely a Lannister vassal of some sort, but let's at least get the details right. And, well, this is irrelevant anyway. Whether Bronn is lying or telling the truth, he's going to wind up saying the same thing, so it hardly works as evidence either way.

Shae is told to pour it on with Tyrion, and keep an eye and ear open -- there is a rich reward for her should she play her part well.

What part is this? What is she being rewarded for? What information can she provide that Tywin didn't already know or couldn't get easily some other way? Tyrion tells Shae practically nothing that is of any use to Tywin. If Shae is a spy, she's a wholly unsuccessful one with no obvious objective. The argument here simply begs the question, assuming that Shae was a spy planted by Tywin without ever advancing any reason to think Tywin would need to plant a spy.

I think Tywin liked ladies of the night just as much as his father did. And it really ticked him off that he was a chip off the old Lannister block, which is why he ranted at Tyrion about it. The old hypocrite.

Whether this is true or not, it doesn't explain why Tywin would plant a whore to spy on his son. In fact, it rather militates against the idea.

[Beathag]

How or why would Tywin 'hear of it'? Tyrion certainly didn't tell him, so the only way Tywin could have 'heard of it' was from Bronn. I can hardly imagine that Tywin decided to give an audience to a common sellsword who wanted to tell him that Tyrion had sent him out to look for a whore. And if he did, for what earthly reason would Tywin's reaction be 'yeah, give him this one, who is a spy that works for me and I just happen to have handy' instead of 'tell him I said no whores'?

Even if Tywin could somehow have heard of it from someone else, he'd have to suborn Bronn to plant Shae. So this scenario imagines that not only Shae, but also Bronn, have been working for Tywin and lying to Tyrion about it all along. But if this is the case, why does Tywin need two spies watching Tyrion? We'd also have to assume that all that stuff about Tyrion besmirching the honour of the Lannisters with his whoring was misdirection, all part of some cunning plan to do... what? Spy on Tyrion? There has to be a simpler way to do that.

The notion that Shae was planted by Tywin from the start is a good deal more complicated than the alternatives. I don't think it's very credible.

No, he doesn't.

No, he didn't. He named him Tyrion.

And above

I did say it was my pet theory, Mormont. Just conjecture. Not in stone. And I made mistakes, mea culpa.

I had in it my head Bronn said he took her from a Lannister. You are correct, he did not say that. My fault for not putting it in writing on an index card. That is fixed.

"I took her from a knight. The man was loathe to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat...that, and my dirk at his throat." And then draws his sword on Tyrion

And Shae gives the name of "some minor retainer of an insignificant lord" -- "a small man." Why would a minor retainer have such a beauty as Shae? Why is Shae a reliable narratore?

It is hard to believe that a scuffle involving someone in service to Tywin who has a dirk held to his throat by an unknown sellsword was not answered by others around this "minor retainer."

I do not know what spies Tywin would have on Tyrion when he sent him to King's Landing to ride herd on Cersei and the small council. Shae made sense to me. Would Varys report to Tywin? Pycelle, undoubtedly.

We are not given the whole of Varys' and Illyrion's chat in the corridors as Arya follows them. I am sure there was "much and more" that was said. Martin does not give us any pillow talk. But there is always pillow talk amongst lovers.

I just like the idea Tywin planted her there.

When King's Landing is saved by Tyrion, Tywin takes the Hand's chain from him. it is Tywin who knights Bronn while Tyrion is recuperating . And Tywin who takes Shae. Why would Tywin want anything to do Tyrion's leavings if there was not something in place before?

I like circumstantial evidence. I am an old prosecutor, argued many cases. When do too many circumstances suddenly become no circumstance at all?

EDIT: And Shae never acts as though she is afraid of being discovered by Tywin. Tywin forbade Tyrion against taking "the whore" to court. Tyrion tries to be careful. But Shae is not fearful at all. After the trial, she asks Cersei for the return of her possessions. Shae is either profoundly stupid (which she is most definitely not) or knows she is protected.

And for the name of the son of the may rapes born to Lollys, you are dead-on correct. I typed Tywin, when I should have typed Tyrion. Bronn named the little boy Tyrion.

Again, My Fault.

My Fault.

My Most Grieveious Fault.

[Lionblood rider]

Based on the things she said, she seemed too 'perfect' to be realistic. She so rarely said anything unless it was sexual, and exactly what Tyrion would have wanted to hear. She had the personality of a pet.

Given how well GRRM builds complex characters I'd be very surprised if she was as transparent as she let on.

[Lionblood rider]

Of course TV Shae is very different from book Shae. But maybe that's why they wanted to cast a 'porn star' as Shae. TV Shae did a good job selling 'sex' as 'love', and discovering early on that was Tyrion's weakness.

[mormont]

I did say it was my pet theory, Mormont. Just conjecture. Not in stone. And I made mistakes, mea culpa.

Hey, I make them myself, believe me. ;)

"I took her from a knight. The man was loathe to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat...that, and my dirk at his throat." And then draws his sword on Tyrion

And Shae gives the name of "some minor retainer of an insignificant lord" -- "a small man." Why would a minor retainer have such a beauty as Shae? Why is Shae a reliable narratore?

I tend to the view that narrators are reliable unless there's some substantial reason to think they're not - otherwise we'd be doubting everything. I really don't see any reason to doubt that Shae was with a minor knight: yeah, she's beautiful, but she's a whore. She is, in all likelihood, available to anyone willing to pay, and whom she wants to take on as a client. There's no suggestion that she was with this guy exclusively or long-term - in fact, that would be a pretty unusual arrangement, only open to wealthy clients like Tyrion. The alternative is that we have to assume both Bronn and Shae are lying, and as I've pointed out, there's really no substantial reason to suppose that.

It is hard to believe that a scuffle involving someone in service to Tywin who has a dirk held to his throat by an unknown sellsword was not answered by others around this "minor retainer."

It's not hard to believe at all. Minor scuffles over a whore in an armed camp before a battle? Shit happens when men are on edge in those situations. If she'd been with a more significant lord, he'd have had his own retainers, and they might have backed him up - but likely, this knight had (at most) a squire. Nobody else would see it as their business, providing no blood was shed. And, well, Bronn is a pretty tough guy. I have no doubt he could handle the situation.

I do not know what spies Tywin would have on Tyrion when he sent him to King's Landing to ride herd on Cersei and the small council. Shae made sense to me.

The problem with this is the timing of Shae coming on the scene: it happens before Tywin decides to send Tyrion to do this. She turns up before Tywin hears of Jaime's defeat and capture, and the indications are that prior to this he'd intended to leave the campaign in the Riverlands to Jaime and go to KL himself. Even if we ignore this and assume that Tywin always meant to send Tyrion (and that would be pretty hard to stand up), she turns up the night before a battle in which Tywin deliberately sends Tyrion to the van, which he intends should collapse as part of his strategy. Why go to such elaborate lengths to plant a spy on a man who is unlikely to see the next sunset? No, it doesn't make any sense that Tywin was setting a spy with King's Landing in mind, not at that juncture.

Would Varys report to Tywin? Pycelle, undoubtedly.

Undoubtedly, but since you mention Pycelle, he'd have to be in on this plot too - how else would Shae (or Bronn) send messages to Tywin?

Martin does not give us any pillow talk.

On the contrary. He gives us quite a bit of Shae/Tyrion pillow talk.

I just like the idea Tywin planted her there.

Sure. But there's no harm in examining it a bit, right?

When King's Landing is saved by Tyrion, Tywin takes the Hand's chain from him. it is Tywin who knights Bronn while Tyrion is recuperating . And Tywin who takes Shae. Why would Tywin want anything to do Tyrion's leavings if there was not something in place before?

Why would he want Tyrion's leavings anyway? That makes little sense either way (and so does the idea that he'd take a whore to bed in the heart of the Red Keep and allow her to wear the Hand's chain - Tywin, who is so concerned with appearances, and making sure that whores know their place?) There's much that is fishy about that scene, and none of it is explained very well by the idea that Shae was a spy in Tywin's employ.

I like circumstantial evidence. I am an old prosecutor, argued many cases. When do too many circumstances suddenly become no circumstance at all?

Ah, but the issue is, how many circumstances are there, actually? Much of your 'circumstantial evidence' only works as even circumstantial evidence if we first assume the desired conclusion: if we approach the issue with an open mind, the 'circumstantial evidence' pretty much disappears.

[Sapphireghost18]

but that would be the wrong way to do it. it would change the circumstances entirely. they should never have changed Shae that much in the show, just because they didn't have any other way to show what Tyrion is feeling. i know its an adaptation, but that changes the whole perspective of Tyrion's character towards the end of the book. the fact that Shae slept with Tywin and betrayed Tyrion during the trial is a damn good reason to kill her, and now that they have to kill her, it won't be the same. who watches the show is never much suspiscious about Shae as in the books we all wonder if she's to be trusted. for me, at least, it CHANGED the characters and the storyline, and i hope they stop creating scenes that didn't happen to substitute scenes that did happen in the books, just like Dany's storyline in Qarth (what was that? completely different, and they can't play the card of budget, because they didn't need to spend money to be truthful to the book).

The show is likely to catch up to the books. It would be a smart move to make the story their own so they don't have to rely on the book for material. It's smart and I like the idea of a "what if" version of GoT out there. I understand if you hate it. The books are beautifully written but in the end they're covering their asses in a cool creative way. After all, these are 2 completely different mediums here and overall I feel the same way about the major players as I do in the books so I'm okay with it.