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Dawn - Trophy captured from the Others?


Sevumar

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Dawn is one of the most storied swords of the Seven Kingdoms, on par with the coveted Valyrian steel blades treasured by some Westerosi houses. The origin story for the sword says it was forged from the heart of a fallen star and the Daynes have embraced meteoric imagery in their House sigil and the name of their seat.

But there are things about the sword that seem inconsistent with a blade made from meteoric metal (most likely a nickel-iron alloy). The blade of Dawn is described as "pale as milkglass" and "alive with light" but it is never said to have the silvery quality of most metals. There is one other material in the world that seems to be a good match for the blade of Dawn - the weapons of the Others.

Descriptions of Dawn

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

And Dayne, with Dawn in hand ... The outlaw’s longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. “It’s that white sword of yours I want,” the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then.

ETA: Another description of Dawn from Feast attesting to the sword's razor sharpness.

“All knights must bleed, Jaime,” Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. “Blood is the seal of our devotion.” With Dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime’s tunic, so he bled anew.

Descriptions of the Others' swords

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk.

The thing that stands out to me is that both of these swords share two qualities that set them apart from all other swords in the series: they're unusually pale and they seem luminescent prior to battle. Dawn shares the uncommon sharpness possessed by Valyrian steel swords and the Others' blades.

It is possible that Dawn is not made of meteoric metal as the Daynes claim, but is instead a trophy of the War for the Dawn, a blade captured from Westeros's greatest enemy? If true, do the Daynes know the actual origins of their House blade or has the meteorite story been so oft-repeated that the truth is lost to history? If it is a blade of the Others, is it one more thing to add to the list of weapons that can hurt them?

It is possible that the material of Dawn's blade is simply a fantastical metal invented by Martin to have otherworldly properties. In that case, the fact that it doesn't seem to have the silvery appearance of metal wouldn't matter much. Does the unusual appearance of Dawn tell us something important about the origin of the sword, or is it just a detail included by Martin to make the sword seem more magical or more exotic?

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Nice thought!

I hadn't made the connection on how the two are so similarly described before now, it's definitely worth considering.

If it were true, I could see how the story could be meddled over the ages. With Dorne placing importance on the sword of the morning and there also being a constellation of a similar name, that could add to the confusion over time... I have a strong feeling that someone will put the blade to use in the next book, hopefully we'll learn more about the legitimacy of the sword in question then.

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I ... kind of like it.

OK, this is me being crackpot and rambling, but ...

... what if some guy in the Battle for the Dawn, probably a Night's Watch brother, maybe even one from Dorne who was a Dayne, had a star sigil — just a star, not a falling star — and died fighting an Other, but maybe was able to steal the thing's sword before he did so, or maybe even killed an Other with its own sword. This guy would literally be a "falling star," and could even be the "bleeding star" alluded to in the prophecy, in its/his original personification — like, this guy's death may have helped the original Azor Ahai do his Azor Ahai thang, and THAT is why "when the star bleeds" (or however it's worded) is part of the "checklist."

As a token of appreciation for the guy's sacrifice, the Night's Watch sends the sword back to House Dayne, who spin their own family legend about the sword being forged "from a fallen star," and change a basic star sigil to the "falling star" sigil. The family member's role in the Battle for the Dawn, maybe even a pivotal role, could also be what inspired the family's motto, alleged to be something like "we bring the dawn" or something similar.

So this:

1. Explains how the Dayne family might have gotten their sigil and maybe even their words.

2. Explains how they got Dawn.

3. Explains how the "bleeding star" got into the Azor Ahai prophecy.

4. Gives the Daynes and Dawn a big role to play in the Others fight without Dawn necessarily being Lightbringer.

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An interesting thought. Couple of problems I can see with it though is Dawn is described as a regular looking greatsword other than what you described while as in the text there the Other's sword is unlike anything Will had ever seen, more sliver of ice than sword and indeed after their blades touch Royce's blade is covered in frost.

Though it can make you wonder at the Stark's family sword name being Ice long before they got a Valyrian blade while they were still known as the kings of winter

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An interesting thought. Couple of problems I can see with it though is Dawn is described as a regular looking greatsword other than what you described while as in the text there the Other's sword is unlike anything Will had ever seen, more sliver of ice than sword and indeed after their blades touch Royce's blade is covered in frost.

Theoretically it could have been reworked, maybe? I dunno, I kind of like the general idea and I'd like the sword and the Daynes to tie into this all somehow, even if I DO NOT think Dawn was, is or will be Lightbringer.

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Theoretically it could have been reworked, maybe? I dunno, I kind of like the general idea and I'd like the sword and the Daynes to tie into this all somehow, even if I DO NOT think Dawn was, is or will be Lightbringer.

I was actually kind of thinking the same thing which could tie into their idea of it being forged from a falling star. Maybe a few of the Other's blades reforged into something more resembling a sword a person would be familiar with and in the process maybe losing some it's original properties.

Though why is Starfall named Starfall?

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So this:

1. Explains how the Dayne family might have gotten their sigil and maybe even their words.

2. Explains how they got Dawn.

3. Explains how the "bleeding star" got into the Azor Ahai prophecy.

4. Gives the Daynes and Dawn a big role to play in the Others fight without Dawn necessarily being Lightbringer.

This is a nice synthesis of much of what we know about House Dayne, Dawn, and the various legends surrounding the War for the Dawn. I really like the tie-in with the bleeding star and the Azor Ahai mythos.

Your post made me wonder if maybe House Dayne isn't originally from Dorne. They seem to be First Men, so they could have originally settled anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps they weren't even nobles prior to the War for the Dawn, but if a Dayne ancestor becomes a man of the hour as laid out in your post, it's possible that his family or his compatriots take the sword and head as far away from the memory of the North and of the cold as possible, settling in Dorne and building their castle and legacy around this tale of the fallen star.

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This is a nice synthesis of much of what we know about House Dayne, Dawn, and the various legends surrounding the War for the Dawn. I really like the tie-in with the bleeding star and the Azor Ahai mythos.

Your post made me wonder if maybe House Dayne isn't originally from Dorne. They seem to be First Men, so they could have originally settled anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps they weren't even nobles prior to the War for the Dawn, but if a Dayne ancestor becomes a man of the hour as laid out in your post, it's possible that his family or his compatriots take the sword and head as far away from the memory of the North and of the cold as possible, settling in Dorne and building their castle and legacy around this tale of the fallen star.

I like that idea, too. Good thinking. And yes, I don't think it says specifically that the Daynes were always in Dorne, just that they're an old family (if I'm incorrect, someone tell me!). Starfall has to postdate Dawn, doesn't it — everything about the family ties into the sword, suggesting that there might be something more critical to the whole thing than Great^10-Grandaddy Dayne finding a smoking hunk of rock in the backyard. The fact that only certain, special knights are allowed to possess Dawn and be the Sword of the Morning also suggests, to me, that some major act of valor is associated with the sword's history.

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This is a nice synthesis of much of what we know about House Dayne, Dawn, and the various legends surrounding the War for the Dawn. I really like the tie-in with the bleeding star and the Azor Ahai mythos.

Your post made me wonder if maybe House Dayne isn't originally from Dorne. They seem to be First Men, so they could have originally settled anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps they weren't even nobles prior to the War for the Dawn, but if a Dayne ancestor becomes a man of the hour as laid out in your post, it's possible that his family or his compatriots take the sword and head as far away from the memory of the North and of the cold as possible, settling in Dorne and building their castle and legacy around this tale of the fallen star.

Well Dorne is where the First Men originally crossed into Westeros. Somebody was asking about why House Dayne is considered one of the oldest Houses in Westeros but I don't think it was answered or where the idea even came from.

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Theoretically it could have been reworked, maybe? I dunno, I kind of like the general idea and I'd like the sword and the Daynes to tie into this all somehow, even if I DO NOT think Dawn was, is or will be Lightbringer.

This line of thinking gives Dawn its own identity and helps to explain its uniqueness among the legendary swords of Westeros without entering it as a Lightbringer candidate. Even though it's described as luminescent or illuminated, the words used to describe it always seem cold rather than warm. Fire is never anywhere in the discussion or description of Dawn.

I think there would have had to be some reworking of the blade to balance it for human use and to attach a hilt and handle more suited to a human wielder.

Starfall has to postdate Dawn, doesn't it — everything about the family ties into the sword, suggesting that there might be something more critical to the whole thing than Great^10-Grandaddy Dayne finding a smoking hunk of rock in the backyard. The fact that only certain, special knights are allowed to possess Dawn and be the Sword of the Morning also suggests, to me, that some major act of valor is associated with the sword's history.

I agree. It seems like Starfall has to have been built after the family placed the sword at the core of their identity. The Palestone Sword tower that Ashara is said to have thrown herself from seems like something that has to be inspired by Dawn. It's not the kind of thing you come up with before incidentally coming into possession of such an unusual weapon.

Your observation about the Sword of the Morning title seems spot-on too. Everything about the office and the sword screams some kind of connection with a key moment in the War for the Dawn.

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Well Dorne is where the First Men originally crossed into Westeros. Somebody was asking about why House Dayne is considered one of the oldest Houses in Westeros but I don't think it was answered or where the idea even came from.

Good point. The First Men who ended up in the North and in Thenn territory probably also entered through Dorne and migrated north and perhaps the ancestors of the Daynes were among that wave of settlers.

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Your observation about the Sword of the Morning title seems spot-on too. Everything about the office and the sword screams some kind of connection with a key moment in the War for the Dawn.

The more I think about this — especially the "bleeding star," thing, because where would that have come from? — the more I like it. The Sword of the Morning office could be one of those things like, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," that has real-world, maybe even supernatural origins, that were for whatever reason lost over time. The Daynes might know that only an especially superior and chivalrous knight may wield Dawn, but they might not know that it's because, say, one of their ancestors showed exemplary courage in the Battle for the Dawn, and only the best knight can succeed him and wield the sword he won/forged/wielded.

Which brings up another tidbit — isn't it curious how we don't know how Dawn is earned and how the Sword of the Morning is chosen?

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Good point. The First Men who ended up in the North and in Thenn territory probably also entered through Dorne and migrated north and perhaps the ancestors of the Daynes were among that wave of settlers.

And they are, apparently anyways based on location, stony Dornishmen who have the most First Man blood in Dorne.

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The Sword of the Morning office could be one of those things like, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," that has real-world, maybe even supernatural origins, that were for whatever reason lost over time.

It has the same kind of ring as the Stark-in-Winterfell mantra, doesn't it? It would be a nice touch of the wielder of the sword has to be worthy of the blade's origins and the feats of the first wielder.

Which brings up another tidbit — isn't it curious how we don't know how Dawn is earned and how the Sword of the Morning is chosen?

It's very odd that we know nothing about this. The whole of House Dayne has been kind of under the radar for the duration of the story so far. There's too much lore and too much potential there for them not to play a bigger role in the story at some point, but how? Is this like a sword in the stone type of worthiness? The sword won't release itself to an unworthy wielder? That seems a tad too fantastic, but it's not like we've been told that the duty of naming the Sword of the Morning is entrusted to a person or group of people.

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You may be right about this, but the overall gist of the theory still works even if the Daynes settled in Dorne from the start. ;)

There's an SSM asking how old House Dayne, Starfall and Dawn are and Martin answers, but only for Dawn.

"2. You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway."

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1183/

Which would still work for me as I'm one that is beginning to think the eight thousand year timeline is greatly exaggerated.

It's Darkstar that puts a time on House Dayne though it definitely has be taken with a grain of salt but it certainly suggest more of a First Men rather than Andal origin.

“My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,”

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I like this theory. It makes sense as well, simply applying human nature in war. You're fighting something you've never seen before, you kill it, and then you study it. It makes sense that SOMEBODY would have thought to have looked at the Other's weapons after they'd killed one of them.

As for the Daynes, they're one of my favourite houses in this series. The whole Sword of the Morning/Dawn thing is badass, and I kind of hope you guys are right with this :thumbsup: :agree:

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I think the Starks are supposed to be 8k and the Daynes are supposed to be 10k.

The Daynes have existed for ten thousand years, to the dawn of days, it's said (IV: 304)

http://www.westeros....es_of_Starfall/

Darkstar is the one who said it:

"My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days. Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"

"He was a great knight"

"He had great sword"

The length for both could be exaggerated.

Ran said that GRRM is still unsure about House Dayne's words.

I've the house words from GRRM, but he wasn't particularly happy with it and wasn't sure it'd be the final set of words... but I can't really say what they are. So keep speculating.

I will say I've always favored "Dawn Brings Light"... but maybe that's too on-the-nose.

http://asoiaf.wester...se-dayne-words/

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Darkstar is the one who said it:

The length for both could be exaggerated.

I think Sam's statement in Feast about the general murkiness of history and the unreliability of historical texts is pretty solid. If we move up the arrival of the First Men, the War for the Dawn probably moves up along with it. Martin seems to be deliberately vague when it comes to answering questions about the Daynes, suggesting that he doesn't want to be pinned down by something he says in public/correspondence or that he's holding the Daynes in reserve for something important and more will be revealed in time.

Ran said that GRRM is still unsure about House Dayne's words.

Good find. This seems to reinforce a connection between the Daynes and a pivotal role in the War for the Dawn.

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