Dawn - Trophy captured from the Others?

[Ciazio]

- Battle for the Dawn

- After dawn comes the morning

- Dawn wielder is the Sword of the Morning

A Dayne ended the Long Night with a Dawn and then it was Morning... Great!!!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

It's also strange how the Other itself sounds similar to Dawn.

"bones like milkglass, pale and shiny"

"who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning"

I'm going to be really upset if it turns out that the Night's King forged Dawn, and that his Other 'Queen' "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars" was used to temper this bizarro Other/Human Hybrid blade.

I want Dawn to just be another cool, not quite consistent thing in this universe. I'd prefer it not end up being referred to by prophecy or instrumental to the story.

[three-eyed monkey]

I posted my theory on the 'Dawn x Lightbringer: two different swords' thread. I believe they could be the same sword and I have yet to see anything posted to convince me otherwise.

Clues in summary:

The Daynes go back to the Battle for the Dawn.

The Sword of the Morning is an office that pays hommage to a Hero, hence only those deemed worthy wield the greatsword Dawn.

It seems plausible to me that The Sword of the Morning ended the Long Night.

Dawn does bring light, so Light-bringer seems an appropriate alias for Dawn.

The AA prophecy comes from Asshai but IMO relates to events in Westeros, that is where they built the Wall to keep the Others out. Therefore the original AA was one of the First Men. AAR may well come from the bloodline of the First Men.

Forged from 'the heart of a star' rings of Nissa Nissa, Azhor Ahai's beloved wife who got the sword through the heart and became his 'fallen star.'

The Dayne words are 'Fallen and Reborn'. Sounds like AAR.

GRRM does keep a lot of Dayne stuff from us. We don't even know how Arthur Dayne died or if he's dead at all? Ashara's a bit of a mystery too. Which makes me think that House Dayne has a pivotal role, yet to be revealed.

But as far as the Others weapons go, I would consider this. Our best information comes from Will's prologue and Sam's encounter in ASoS. We can piece together that the Others blades are razor thin, 'an ice-blue blade gleaming with a faint blue glow'. We also it screeched when it brushed the flame of Grenn's torch, Small Paul's blood smoked when it touched the blade. Ser Wymar's blade shattered into shards on impact. We don't hear this sort of thing about Dawn.

One other thing, maybe a stretch, but if we consider that the Others wore armor that shifted and rippled as it moved etc. it might be that the armor and swords are of a similar material, like any knights sword and armour. And I do seem to remember that the armor of the Other killed by Sam ran down his legs in blue rivulets when he was stabbed and for that reason I find the capturing of Others' weapons or armor unlikely.

[Sandy Snow]

I'm glad somone brought this up, it's a notion that's been bouncing around my head for a wee while now.

There is definately something about Dawn that smacks of great import to the future of the story, and my crack pot theory (nebulous at best) is that this is the sword of the Night's King, similar to the weopans of the WW, but suitable for 'human' hands, as his once were. Thus sword, being the very opposite of the fiery Lightbringer (which presumably will be good at killing WW) will hopefuly be one of the few weapons that can do serious harm to Dragons, since the harming of dragons is a bit of grey area as far as i can see.

The connection of the Daynes to the Starks and the Long Night, is something I'm unable to pull into this, other than if Ned did in fact sire a bastard with Ashara, who turns out to be Jon. Doubtful that Ned Dayne will have much to do with the story, other than a placeholder for the Dayne part of the story.

I don't buy the Darkstar = B + A, i think Ned is too perfect at the moment and needs a littlebalancing out. Now the question of who R + L = ? No clue. I don't know how the timelines all work out for all this, but i like to think GRRM still has some twists up his sleeve that aren't all over the boards.

[Teal'c]

An interesting thought. Couple of problems I can see with it though is Dawn is described as a regular looking greatsword other than what you described while as in the text there the Other's sword is unlike anything Will had ever seen, more sliver of ice than sword and indeed after their blades touch Royce's blade is covered in frost.

Though it can make you wonder at the Stark's family sword name being Ice long before they got a Valyrian blade while they were still known as the kings of winter

I also want to point out, before bedtime, that if Dawn really has been locked up for more than a decade and a half, no one has seen it in person since then — everyone is calling up its imagery from memory. And only people who interacted with Dayne directly — people who saw it unsheathed — would know what it looked like. Meaning, until we actually see it firsthand, all of what we know about it is based on memory and is therefore fallible. Meaning, it's possible that when we do see it — and I do think it's when — it looks ... slightly ... diffferent ... than what we've been led to believe.

When Waymar Royce fought the other, the others' blade caused it to freeze and become brittle until it shattered in his hand. When Jaime describes Daynes' battle with the Smiling Knight he just describes his sword as being notched, but doesn't mention anything about it shattering.

That is a meaningful difference between the two blades we've been comparing in this thread. They have three big points of similarity: razor sharpness, luminescence, and blades made from a pale material. The only thing I can think of that might account for the difference you've observed is that the blades of the Others have some properties that only come out in their own hands. A human might be able to modify an Other's weapon for his own use, but he wouldn't get the full benefit from it that an Other, as an elemental force of cold, might.

It is totally feasible that Other swords may have different appearance and properties depending on whether a cold Other or a warm human is wielding it. This Dawn = Other weapon makes a lot of sense to me. It also explains why Daynes and Dawn are mentioned over and over but we never seem to learn any more about them, even when we finally meet some of them (Edric and Darkstar).

[bloodymime]

It is totally feasible that Other swords may have different appearance and properties depending on whether a cold Other or a warm human is wielding it. This Dawn = Other weapon makes a lot of sense to me. It also explains why Daynes and Dawn are mentioned over and over but we never seem to learn any more about them, even when we finally meet some of them (Edric and Darkstar).

True, things can always just be chalked up to 'it's magic' but I would still lean towards Dawn being forged by men into a greatsword and in the process perhaps losing some of it's properties yet perhaps a weakness as well. I'm mainly thinking of the possibility of their swords melting at the touch of dragonglass, their armour does melt same as their flesh and bones after all. If Valyrian steel has the same advantage as the dragonglass like Sam and Jon think it would seem likely Dawn could have had an embarrassing end the first time a Dayne crossed swords with someone using a Valyrian sword.

Crackpot cheesy sci fi theory, both the dragons and the Others are from beyond and this theory gives both sides a story of coming from there. The story of the dragons and the moon and now the Others and the idea of a fallen star.

[Maggie the frog]

I think Sam's statement in Feast about the general murkiness of history and the unreliability of historical texts is pretty solid.

Too bad no one wrote down what Old Nan had to say. :)

[Cheese Pudding]

I'm totally buying it, great catch. It really explains a lot of House Dayne's history and their existence time.

[Sevumar]

The AA prophecy comes from Asshai but IMO relates to events in Westeros, that is where they built the Wall to keep the Others out. Therefore the original AA was one of the First Men. AAR may well come from the bloodline of the First Men.

I don't think we'll ever find out for sure, but I'm extremely curious as to why the War for the Dawn, so central in Westerosi history, remained an event of legend on that continent, but seems to have become an article of faith in Asshai. What's missing is an explanation about how the events of the war get transformed into the particular narrative that the Red Priests have brought back to Westeros in the form of Melisandre and Thoros.

The Dayne words are 'Fallen and Reborn'. Sounds like AAR.

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that Martin has never actually settled on words for House Dayne, but that one of his early candidates had been "Dawn Brings Light." There's a reference to Fallen and Reborn in the card game, but they're not presented as the House motto.

Our best information comes from Will's prologue and Sam's encounter in ASoS. We can piece together that the Others blades are razor thin, 'an ice-blue blade gleaming with a faint blue glow'. We also it screeched when it brushed the flame of Grenn's torch, Small Paul's blood smoked when it touched the blade. Ser Wymar's blade shattered into shards on impact. We don't hear this sort of thing about Dawn.

The blades themselves are not described as ice-blue. The light around the blade prior to combat is the only thing about the sword described as being blue. The rest of what you're describing could be the result of putting the material in extremely cold conditions, or it could be a sign that the blades possess properties that humans are unable to unlock.

One other thing, maybe a stretch, but if we consider that the Others wore armor that shifted and rippled as it moved etc. it might be that the armor and swords are of a similar material, like any knights sword and armour. And I do seem to remember that the armor of the Other killed by Sam ran down his legs in blue rivulets when he was stabbed and for that reason I find the capturing of Others' weapons or armor unlikely.

I'm pretty sure that it was the pattern on the armor that shifted and rippled, not the material itself. It seems to have a camouflaging property. We also talked about the weapon wielded by the Other Sam killed a bit earlier in the thread and it had been pulled from his hand and lodged in Paul. Its fate isn't mentioned, but there's nothing in the text about it disintegrating when it's wielder dies. It's possible, but unconfirmed that white walker weapons could persist after their deaths.

[Sevumar]

True, things can always just be chalked up to 'it's magic' but I would still lean towards Dawn being forged by men into a greatsword and in the process perhaps losing some of it's properties yet perhaps a weakness as well. I'm mainly thinking of the possibility of their swords melting at the touch of dragonglass, their armour does melt same as their flesh and bones after all. If Valyrian steel has the same advantage as the dragonglass like Sam and Jon think it would seem likely Dawn could have had an embarrassing end the first time a Dayne crossed swords with someone using a Valyrian sword.

It's probably a good bet that someone wielding Dawn crossed blades with a foe using a Valyrian steel sword at some point in history. There's even a chance that it happened at the Tower of Joy if Ned had Ice in tow during the confrontation. Now that would have been a sword fight.

The Others are described as tall, but how tall they are in comparison to people is never mentioned. If the height difference is appreciable, it could be that what's a longsword to an Other is a greatsword to a human. As I've said above, I don't think we have good reason to assume that the swords dissolve with the bodies of their wielders, or it could be possible that whatever of its own gear is in contact with the Other's body melts when it dies. If a sword is separated from its owner when the Other dies, or if it is in the hands of an enemy, as in Martini's scenario, that might well be when it survives the death of its wielder. It would actually help explain why there aren't more such swords in the hands of humans.

Crackpot cheesy sci fi theory, both the dragons and the Others are from beyond and this theory gives both sides a story of coming from there. The story of the dragons and the moon and now the Others and the idea of a fallen star.

That would be a little too Dragonriders of Pern for me. Personally, I hope the "dragons from the moon" bit turns out to be no more real than snarks and grumkins.

[bloodymime]

It's probably a good bet that someone wielding Dawn crossed blades with a foe using a Valyrian steel sword at some point in history. There's even a chance that it happened at the Tower of Joy if Ned had Ice in tow during the confrontation. Now that would have been a sword fight.

The Others are described as tall, but how tall they are in comparison to people is never mentioned. If the height difference is appreciable, it could be that what's a longsword to an Other is a greatsword to a human. As I've said above, I don't think we have good reason to assume that the swords dissolve with the bodies of their wielders, or it could be possible that whatever of its own gear is in contact with the Other's body melts when it dies. If a sword is separated from its owner when the Other dies, or if it is in the hands of an enemy, as in Martini's scenario, that might well be when it survives the death of its wielder. It would actually help explain why there aren't more such swords in the hands of humans.

That would be a little too Dragonriders of Pern for me. Personally, I hope the "dragons from the moon" bit turns out to be no more real than snarks and grumkins.

They're also described as razor thin though and that's so unusual it'd have to be part of Dawn's legend. I also mainly like the idea that they did in fact forge it, only not from a meteorite but something involving the Others but the true origin has been lost with time. Or deliberately changed.

Ha, never read it. Other than ASOIAF I've always avoided anything involving dragons for the most part. Never been a big fan for some reason.

Another crackpot, only a Dayne worthy of bearing Dawn has nothing to do with any kind of moral virture but one with the First Man blood manifesting an ability to literally be able to wield it, not like warging but just in the same general sense as a comparison.

[Sevumar]

They're also described as razor thin though and that's so unusual it'd have to be part of Dawn's legend. I also mainly like the idea that they did in fact forge it, only not from a meteorite but something involving the Others but the true origin has been lost with time. Or deliberately changed.

I think it's possible that the Daynes may have made modifications to a captured blade, but I don't think that the meteorite bit is necessarily true. If the meteoric iron story is not the true origin of Dawn, I'm curious about how that story came to be accepted over the years.

We're not given any information on the thickness of Dawn's blade, but its razor sharpness is attested. You can't have that kind of edge on an extremely thick blade and if the material is more resilient than most steel, it needn't be thick to begin with. It's another area where we just don't have the information to make a good comparison about that particular trait of both swords.

Another crackpot, only a Dayne worthy of bearing Dawn has nothing to do with any kind of moral virture but one with the First Man blood manifesting an ability to literally be able to wield it, not like warging but just in the same general sense as a comparison.

Interesting thought. We know next to nothing about Dayne spouses down the years, but it seems like they would experience the same general mixing of bloodlines that everyone else has, making it unlikely that any particular member is predominantly of First Men ancestry.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I ... kind of like it.

OK, this is me being crackpot and rambling, but ...

... what if some guy in the Battle for the Dawn, probably a Night's Watch brother, maybe even one from Dorne who was a Dayne, had a star sigil — just a star, not a falling star — and died fighting an Other, but maybe was able to steal the thing's sword before he did so, or maybe even killed an Other with its own sword. This guy would literally be a "falling star," and could even be the "bleeding star" alluded to in the prophecy, in its/his original personification — like, this guy's death may have helped the original Azor Ahai do his Azor Ahai thang, and THAT is why "when the star bleeds" (or however it's worded) is part of the "checklist."

As a token of appreciation for the guy's sacrifice, the Night's Watch sends the sword back to House Dayne, who spin their own family legend about the sword being forged "from a fallen star," and change a basic star sigil to the "falling star" sigil. The family member's role in the Battle for the Dawn, maybe even a pivotal role, could also be what inspired the family's motto, alleged to be something like "we bring the dawn" or something similar.

So this:

1. Explains how the Dayne family might have gotten their sigil and maybe even their words.

2. Explains how they got Dawn.

3. Explains how the "bleeding star" got into the Azor Ahai prophecy.

4. Gives the Daynes and Dawn a big role to play in the Others fight without Dawn necessarily being Lightbringer.

I don't think the Dayne's were in Westeros during that time, though. Were they?

[bloodymime]

I don't think the Dayne's were in Westeros during that time, though. Were they?

“My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,”

[Ran]

FWIW, Dawn is Lightbringer. Bank on it. ;)

[bloodymime]

FWIW, Dawn is Lightbringer. Bank on it. ;)

Why do you say that?

[three-eyed monkey]

I don't think we'll ever find out for sure, but I'm extremely curious as to why the War for the Dawn, so central in Westerosi history, remained an event of legend on that continent, but seems to have become an article of faith in Asshai. What's missing is an explanation about how the events of the war get transformed into the particular narrative that the Red Priests have brought back to Westeros in the form of Melisandre and Thoros.

The blades themselves are not described as ice-blue. The light around the blade prior to combat is the only thing about the sword described as being blue.

I'm pretty sure that it was the pattern on the armor that shifted and rippled, not the material itself.

From the wiki:

The Long Night is the name given to a period in history where a terrible darkness fell across Westeros and the east. It occurred approximately eight thousand years before War of Conquest, in the midst of a great winter that lasted for years. The Long Night lasted a generation and laid waste to much of the world through famine and terror.

This leads me to believe that Essos was also affected by the Long Night, but as I said I think the Battle for the Dawn was fought in Westeros. It seems plausible, sensible in fact, that the Wall would be built where they invaded. North of the wall being a land-bridge to the LoAW. So as far east as Asshai would have a legend, slightly different than the westerosi account. Like Sumerian Gilgamesh and biblical Noah, or something like that. I have speculated in other threads that Azhor Ahai might even mean Azhor (the Sword) Ahai (of the Morning), pure speculation I admit.

'The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice-blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle.' is a quote from Samwell's POV in ASoS. The same section adds of Big Paul, 'Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer...' and later adds, '... the Other's armour was running down its legs in rivulets.' I didn't say the sword disintegrated, but offered that if the Others' swords and armour were similar then the sword might well run away in rivulets too.

[Sevumar]

This leads me to believe that Essos was also affected by the Long Night, but as I said I think the Battle for the Dawn was fought in Westeros. It seems plausible, sensible in fact, that the Wall would be built where they invaded.

It makes sense that if the night doesn't end in Westeros, it probably wouldn't end anywhere else in the world either, unless there's something very wrong with the planet. What seems unique to Westeros is the battle against the Others and the operative part of the Azor Ahai mythos centers on preparations for battle against some enemy, not attempting to fight a magical darkness. Specific details about Azor Ahai's deeds and traits are recalled in Asshai but absent from Westeros. That's my main point of curiosity. How do we get to this kind of divergence?

I have speculated in other threads that Azhor Ahai might even mean Azhor (the Sword) Ahai (of the Morning), pure speculation I admit.

This would be a neat connection. Dawn seems different from Lightbringer in a couple of key ways. Lightbringer is the "red sword of heroes" and a blade of fire. Dawn is pale and "alive with light" that isn't described as being any particular color.

'The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice-blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle.' is a quote from Samwell's POV in ASoS. The same section adds of Big Paul, 'Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer...' and later adds, '... the Other's armour was running down its legs in rivulets.' I didn't say the sword disintegrated, but offered that if the Others' swords and armour were similar then the sword might well run away in rivulets too.

In this passage, the blueness seems pretty closely connected with the light, not with the physical properties of the material itself. As for the fate of the sword, the armor is very clearly described melting away, but the sword is never mentioned again after being dragged from the Other's grip. That doesn't mean it survived its owner's death, but it does allow for the possibility.

[LOBROD]

So are we saying that it may have been a Dayne ancester who was the Last Hero in Nans story who set out to find the children of the forest to get help to end the long night?

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

If Dawn is Lightbringer, would it have heat radiating from it?