On Right of Conquest

[hockema56]

I'm making this little post in response to what I've found to be an outrageously prevalent misconception among my fellow "Fourm of Ice and Fire" posters. Everywhere I look, every topic I get involved in, someone seems to pipe up about how Daenerys and/or Aegon are the ones with the best, or most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. This often comes up in discussions about Stannis. I often see people wondering how Stannis will react when he hears about Deanerys and Aegon, being that Stannis is a man who believes in doing one's duty. Most posters seem to think that Stannis' claim to the throne is weakened by the existence of these Targaryens, and that Stannis himself may even relinquish his claim once he realizes that there are others out there with a better claim than he. Everyone seems to forget one simple fact: Right of Conquest cuts both ways.

The Targaryens are the lords of Westeros by RIGHT OF CONQUEST and nothing else. Aegon took the 7 Kingdoms by force, and his descendants inherited them by his decree. 300 years later, Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne himself, by RIGHT OF CONQUEST. His conquest was every bit as legitimate as Aegon's, and when he won his war he and HIS DESCENDANTS became the rightful rulers of Westeros. Until Dany, or Aegon, or Jon or whatever other potential Targaryen takes it BACK by right of conquest, Stannis Baratheon is the rightful King and the Iron Throne belongs to him. End of story.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I completely agree with you. The Targaryens won the Seven Kingdoms in war and lost them in war. The nobility recognized the Baratheon dynasty after Aerys was deposed, and the Baratheons are the legal royal family. Dany and "Aegon" can fight to win them back, but as of right now, they are not legal heirs.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm making this little post in response to what I've found to be an outrageously prevalent misconception among my fellow "Fourm of Ice and Fire" posters. Everywhere I look, every topic I get involved in, someone seems to pipe up about how Daenerys and/or Aegon are the ones with the best, or most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. This often comes up in discussions about Stannis. I often see people wondering how Stannis will react when he hears about Deanerys and Aegon, being that Stannis is a man who believes in doing one's duty. Most posters seem to think that Stannis' claim to the throne is weakened by the existence of these Targaryens, and that Stannis himself may even relinquish his claim once he realizes that there are others out there with a better claim than he. Everyone seems to forget one simple fact: Right of Conquest cuts both ways.

The Targaryens are the lords of Westeros by RIGHT OF CONQUEST and nothing else. Aegon took the 7 Kingdoms by force, and his descendants inherited them by his decree. 300 years later, Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne himself, by RIGHT OF CONQUEST. His conquest was every bit as legitimate as Aegon's, and when he won his war he and HIS DESCENDANTS became the rightful rulers of Westeros. Until Dany, or Aegon, or Jon or whatever other potential Targaryen takes it BACK by right of conquest, Stannis Baratheon is the rightful King and the Iron Throne belongs to him. End of story.

Thank You.

[Daidalos]

I agree with this. The persistent delusion that the Targaryens still have any automatic claim to the Iron Throne has contributed significantly to my dislike of the character Daenerys. Mind you, I don't think Stannis should be King either, even if it is his "right." Ultimately, any claim to power is hollow, as empty a rationalization as a ribbon on a sword.

[7OldDrownedRedGodsofLight]

Dany is a pretender, Aegon (legitimate or not) is a pretender, Stannis is the one true heir, unfortunately the realm still recognizes Tommen as a Baratheon, until Tommen is believed(rightfully) to be baseborn, and an abomination of twincest, Stannis will have to efectively win the throne that is his by rights through right of conquest.

[Toccs]

The Targaryens didn't win the Seven Kingdoms by right of conquest, the Targaryens created the Seven Kingdoms through conquest.

As for who is the rghtful king now, it's pretty complex sitaution with no clear answer. The Targaeyen's created the institution of the Iron Thronw it is intimately connected to their family. The throne was never surrendered to Robert by Aerys or any of his children and since there is a still a child of Aerys alive it is quite right that she would have a valid claim to something that her family created and that was stolen.

Ultimately I think that since it hasn't even been a single generation of Baratheon rule and that Baratheon rule has been disaterous and since there is still a child of the last Targayen king alive that the Targaryen do still have a claim to the throne.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Welcome to the forums Hockema!

The misconception is started by Dany. She thinks the throne belongs to her and her fans on this forum are just rooting for her. (You gotta give the girl some slack though. Look at who raised her.) Some people feel that because the Targs built KL and the chair, that they have lifetime claim to it. I disagree though.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law and a Baratheon butt is warming the seat. If she kills all the Baratheons or they kneel, then it will be hers. I completely agree with you.

[7OldDrownedRedGodsofLight]

.Possession is 9/10ths of the law and a Baratheon butt is warming the seat. If she kills all the Baratheons or they kneel, then it will be hers. I completely agree with you.

and we know Stannis isn't kneeling, so Aegon has to be the one to remove Tommen, or Stannis, because we all know Dany is never going to get around to it, she might as well just remain queen of Mereen, that is her best option (and I'm guessing she knows it, otherwise she wouldn't have lingered so long there)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Targaryens didn't win the Seven Kingdoms by right of conquest, the Targaryens created the Seven Kingdoms through conquest.

They won the right to subjugate Westeros under their rule, through conquest.

As for who is the rghtful king now, it's pretty complex sitaution with no clear answer. The Targaeyen's created the institution of the Iron Thronw it is intimately connected to their family. The throne was never surrendered to Robert by Aerys or any of his children and since there is a still a child of Aerys alive it is quite right that she would have a valid claim to something that her family created and that was stolen.

Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaenys were all killed and Viserys and Dany were exiled. When the nobles recognized and acknowledged and swore fealty to House Baratheon, legally, the Targaryens ceased to be the royal family. Dany can say it's hers all she wants, but that doesn't mean anything when no one acknowledges it and is willing to back up her claim. Unless you think half-assed Dornish marriage alliances count ...

[Anvilbreaker]

I do hate to disagree with you all, but Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn used the fact that he was distantly related to the Targs to justify his reign, not throughout the right of conquest, so while I doubt Stannis would ever concede a claim, The Targs would be able to use their relationship in the same way Robert did, even if Stannis did claim conquest. at least thats how i see it, feel free to point out any mistakes I have made

[Slayer of Pies]

Most of you are missing the entire point, which is that there is no one "rightful king" and legitimacy is just a social construct.

[7OldDrownedRedGodsofLight]

I do hate to disagree with you all, but Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn used the fact that he was distantly related to the Targs to justify his reign, not throughout the right of conquest, so while I doubt Stannis would ever concede a claim, The Targs would be able to use their relationship in the same way Robert did, even if Stannis did claim conquest. at least thats how i see it, feel free to point out any mistakes I have made

well Stannis, and Robert have the same blood, so if that was the case, and they considered Bob to be the king over Dany, and any other Targaryen, then yes Stannis would still be king over those same people.

[Daidalos]

I do hate to disagree with you all, but Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn used the fact that he was distantly related to the Targs to justify his reign, not throughout the right of conquest, so while I doubt Stannis would ever concede a claim, The Targs would be able to use their relationship in the same way Robert did, even if Stannis did claim conquest. at least thats how i see it, feel free to point out any mistakes I have made

Ex post facto rationalizations to make the situation more palatable to Targaryen loyalists. It wasn't Robert's Targaryen ancestry that won him the throne, it was victory in war.

[7OldDrownedRedGodsofLight]

Most of you are missing the entire point, which is that there is no one "rightful king" and legitimacy is just a social construct.

There is a rightful king, and it is the person that the Lords of the realm swear fealty to.

[StannisBamfatheon]

I'm making this little post in response to what I've found to be an outrageously prevalent misconception among my fellow "Fourm of Ice and Fire" posters. Everywhere I look, every topic I get involved in, someone seems to pipe up about how Daenerys and/or Aegon are the ones with the best, or most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. This often comes up in discussions about Stannis. I often see people wondering how Stannis will react when he hears about Deanerys and Aegon, being that Stannis is a man who believes in doing one's duty. Most posters seem to think that Stannis' claim to the throne is weakened by the existence of these Targaryens, and that Stannis himself may even relinquish his claim once he realizes that there are others out there with a better claim than he. Everyone seems to forget one simple fact: Right of Conquest cuts both ways.

The Targaryens are the lords of Westeros by RIGHT OF CONQUEST and nothing else. Aegon took the 7 Kingdoms by force, and his descendants inherited them by his decree. 300 years later, Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne himself, by RIGHT OF CONQUEST. His conquest was every bit as legitimate as Aegon's, and when he won his war he and HIS DESCENDANTS became the rightful rulers of Westeros. Until Dany, or Aegon, or Jon or whatever other potential Targaryen takes it BACK by right of conquest, Stannis Baratheon is the rightful King and the Iron Throne belongs to him. End of story.

and boom goes the dynamite.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I do hate to disagree with you all, but Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn used the fact that he was distantly related to the Targs to justify his reign, not throughout the right of conquest, so while I doubt Stannis would ever concede a claim, The Targs would be able to use their relationship in the same way Robert did, even if Stannis did claim conquest. at least thats how i see it, feel free to point out any mistakes I have made

Doesn't Renly say that Robert won the throne with his warhammer, not so much because he descended from a Targ? That doesn't negate the fact that Robert successfully defeated the main-line Targs, and set up a strictly Baratheon dynasty — that right there shows that Robert, though descending from a Targ, does not think of himself as one and certainly does not see his dynasty as a continuation of the Targs.

Most of you are missing the entire point, which is that there is no one "rightful king" and legitimacy is just a social construct.

Yeah this too. But nobles swearing fealty is part of that social contract, and right now, that fealty is directed toward House Baratheon.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Stannis for King!

And yes, legitimacy is a social construct. Westeros ('society') acknowledged the Baratheons as the ruling dinasty. Ergo the Baratheons are the legitimate rulers and the dragons can get roasted (in their own fire, so they get tastier).

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I'm making this little post in response to what I've found to be an outrageously prevalent misconception among my fellow "Fourm of Ice and Fire" posters. Everywhere I look, every topic I get involved in, someone seems to pipe up about how Daenerys and/or Aegon are the ones with the best, or most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. This often comes up in discussions about Stannis. I often see people wondering how Stannis will react when he hears about Deanerys and Aegon, being that Stannis is a man who believes in doing one's duty. Most posters seem to think that Stannis' claim to the throne is weakened by the existence of these Targaryens, and that Stannis himself may even relinquish his claim once he realizes that there are others out there with a better claim than he. Everyone seems to forget one simple fact: Right of Conquest cuts both ways.

The Targaryens are the lords of Westeros by RIGHT OF CONQUEST and nothing else. Aegon took the 7 Kingdoms by force, and his descendants inherited them by his decree. 300 years later, Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne himself, by RIGHT OF CONQUEST. His conquest was every bit as legitimate as Aegon's, and when he won his war he and HIS DESCENDANTS became the rightful rulers of Westeros. Until Dany, or Aegon, or Jon or whatever other potential Targaryen takes it BACK by right of conquest, Stannis Baratheon is the rightful King and the Iron Throne belongs to him. End of story.

Spot on.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Indeed. I don't think Stannis would hold it against Aegon or Dany if they reconquered Westeros, but I'm not sure he'd submit to them. He'd just view them as a "legitimate" foe.

The Lannisters, on the other hand, took the throne through treachery and deceit and fraud, so their claim can never be "legitimate" in his eyes. By the same token, a younger brother can never legitimately usurp an older one like Renly tried to do.

[Toccs]

Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaenys were all killed and Viserys and Dany were exiled. When the nobles recognized and acknowledged and swore fealty to House Baratheon, legally, the Targaryens ceased to be the royal family. Dany can say it's hers all she wants, but that doesn't mean anything when no one acknowledges it and is willing to back up her claim. Unless you think half-assed Dornish marriage alliances count ...

I'm not advocating Targayen rule, I'm just pointing out that it hasn't even been 2 decades of Baratheon rule yet and given such a short time I can completely understand how the Targayen claim can still be consdiered the strongest