Aha! I found proof in the text that Syrio is NOT Jaqen!

[The Roaring Bear]

Even though we have statements from GRRM saying that they are not the same person, I finally found something in the text that supports his statement.

AFFC, Jaime I, page 172:

So there you have it. The three prisoners that Longwaters is referring to are obviously Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. And since Ned signed them over to the Night's Watch before he was arrested, that means Jaqen was already a prisoner before Syrio's confrontation with Meryn Trant. So they cannot possibly be the same person.

It's always great to find these little gems in the text.

Bah posted your quote before adding my own comments lol.

Why can't they be the same? I was never under the impression that Syrio was sent to the black cells, since Trant doesnt seem the type of guy to take prisoners that just embarrassed him.

I always felt that if Syrio was Jaqen, it probably went down:

Syrio escapes Trant, He spends some time observing Arya, wanting to make sure shes alright, seeing her taken by Yoren, he decides to follow along for a bit, and kills Jaqen who was already in Yorens posession. Rorge and Biter witness him kill Jaqen and take Jaqens face, which is why they both fear him. Then, we know the rest.

[Im no Ser]

Yes if you credit Syrio with a range of superpowers and unlimited knowledge. Otherwise no, not really.

Again, IMO Syrio is dead and there is no evidence to suggest he is either alive or Jaquen.

This thread was framed as dispositive evidence on the point that Syrio could not possibly be Jaquen. It is not, since Syrio does in fact have a range of superpowers. It *is* yet another piece of highly suggestive evidence on that point, which stands in stark (no pun intended) contrast with the basically no evidence that they are the same person.

[Darth Rivers]

Syrio is actually Tommen.

[The Other Others]

Syrio is actually Tommen.

It is known.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

He could have killed one of the three and taken his identity

Arya's chapters made it seem like they have to do special preparation to take a face. They can't just morph into anyone they desire.

[The Roaring Bear]

Arya's chapters made it seem like they have to do special preparation to take a face. They can't just morph into anyone they desire.

I took Aya's chapters as them teaching her the lower levels of their skills, and suggesting that there were many other methods at their disposal, but since she was just learning, they were teaching her the most basic, yet most tedious methods. I mean we did see Jaqen change his face with ease right infront of Arya, and he didnt have to go through any process of saving somes skin etc.

I think they started her with the whole using an actual skin mask so that she could better understand that who she was becoming was an actual person (at one point - she was able to get some of the girls memories) to make her a better "actor" when she began assuming multiple identities.

[Im no Ser]

I took Aya's chapters as them teaching her the lower levels of their skills, and suggesting that there were many other methods at their disposal, but since she was just learning, they were teaching her the most basic, yet most tedious methods. I mean we did see Jaqen change his face with ease right infront of Arya, and he didnt have to go through any process of saving somes skin etc.

I think they started her with the whole using an actual skin mask so that she could better understand that who she was becoming was an actual person (at one point - she was able to get some of the girls memories) to make her a better "actor" when she began assuming multiple identities.

The FM's seem to have three methods of disguise: the SkinMask^tm, a glamor and traditional disguise.

I read the SkinMask^tm as the most thorough - the FM actually becomes the person to a degree, even sharing the original person's dreams. This would make magical detection impossible, as the FM is on some psychic level the actual person they are disguised as.

The Glamor is a level below that. It merely changes outward appearance. I don't have my books in front of me, but my recollection is that there are ways certain people and entities can see through glamors, as well as circumstances when they would fail. OTOH it's a lot easier and can be done without the prep work.

[Honor is a Horse]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. That is some people's approach to believing Syrio=Jaqen. Despite what appears to be solid evidence by the OP (Great catch by the way) that Syrio is dead people will still go on believing, or wanting to believe as the case may be. The FM seem to be extremely skilled assassins but that's mostly through enhanced senses, the ability to understand when people are lying, extreme stealthiness and the ability to change identities. Assassins are not the same as fighters and it seems highely unlikely that Syrio would be able to kill Trant and his gold cloaks and take his identity as some have suggested and only slightly more likely he was able to escape Trant and then kill and replace Jaqen. I liked Syrio and I wanted him to live, he's dead and I made peace with that after GoT, 4 books later and people are still having trouble coping.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

LMAO, all the OP has proven is that there was 3 people in the black cells that were signed over to Yoren.

Let's be realistic here, the black cells are not impenetrable. Varys posed as a guard over them for FIFTEEN years (or more) and no one knew any better. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of hidden paths under the red keep. So what exactly disqualifies a master of tactics such as disguise, infiltration, and deception from taking advantage of any of these?

Everyone knows there are supposed to be secret passages, but few ever explored them.

[corbon]

LMAO, all the OP has proven is that there was 3 people in the black cells that were signed over to Yoren.

Let's be realistic here, the black cells are not impenetrable. Varys posed as a guard over them for FIFTEEN years (or more) and no one knew any better. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of hidden paths under the red keep. So what exactly disqualifies a master of tactics such as disguise, infiltration, and deception from taking advantage of any of these?

Everyone knows there are supposed to be secret passages, but few ever explored them.

Because those three men were signed over to the custody of Yoren before Syrio died...

Nothing in this thread is new, especially not the OP (good effort finding it, but it is definitely not new).

There are a dozen other threads discussing this in vast detail.

Syrio is not 100% confirmed dead. We did not see a body.

But every scenario that sees him not dead has a million holes in it. The 'dead' scenario has no holes and fits every single bit of evidence related anywhere.

Which does not prevent believers from following their heart.

[Lummel]

LMAO, all the OP has proven is that there was 3 people in the black cells that were signed over to Yoren.

Let's be realistic here, the black cells are not impenetrable. Varys posed as a guard over them for FIFTEEN years (or more) and no one knew any better. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of hidden paths under the red keep. So what exactly disqualifies a master of tactics such as disguise, infiltration, and deception from taking advantage of any of these?

Everyone knows there are supposed to be secret passages, but few ever explored them.

So if I understand you right that Varys could have taken Syrio down underground into the secret tunnels and then travelled back in time to replace the original Jaqen with Syrio before he was released? Of course this then would require Syrio to be in two places at the same time, but that would only be a small problem to someone with his extensive range of superpowers. :)

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

So if I understand you right that Varys could have taken Syrio down underground into the secret tunnels and then travelled back in time to replace the original Jaqen with Syrio before he was released? Of course this then would require Syrio to be in two places at the same time, but that would only be a small problem to someone with his extensive range of superpowers. :)

Really? That's what you're going with when you try to make someone look stupid?

As others have said, there are a million other threads on this. We don't know when Yoren took custody of Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen. It wouldn't make sense to take them out of the black cells and leave them lightly guarded in a city in chaos. There was quite a bit of time elapsed between Syrio making Arya run and Yoren finding her.

How do we know the FM never knew about the tunnels through KL? Seems like that'd be something that an organization of assasins that started as slaves would be interested in... Or is that only the super power of Eunuchs? IF Syrio had escaped and stumbled upon the tunnels/made his way to them he would have had weeks to wander them and figure out a plan to get out of the city.

My point is that the OP hasn't proven or disproven anything. There's been over a decade for people to speculate on this.

[Lummel]

Sorry, sorry.

But we do know when the Black cells three were released - before Cersei's coup. Therefore the idea of sneaking Syrio into the Black cells just doesn't work without super powers.

[corbon]

As others have said, there are a million other threads on this. We don't know when Yoren took custody of Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen. It wouldn't make sense to take them out of the black cells and leave them lightly guarded in a city in chaos. There was quite a bit of time elapsed between Syrio making Arya run and Yoren finding her.

We know that he did it under Ned's authority with a document signed by Ned as Hand.

That means he did it before Ned was arrested, and before Syrio died.

[danm_999]

I never understood why Syrio would bother stealing the identity of someone bound for the Wall in a cage. There are hundreds of thousands of other people in King's Landing he could have killed as a disguise. Not to mention if he's desperate to be in Yoren's party he can just walk up to Yoren and volunteer with an extremely plausible "I can't find food and I want to leave this city right now".

Escaping the Lannisters, infiltrating the Night's Watch, killing someone in Yoren's party, whatever his goal was, making himself a doppelganger for one of three people in a cage is just illogical.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Sorry, sorry.

But we do know when the Black cells three were released - before Cersei's coup. Therefore the idea of sneaking Syrio into the Black cells just doesn't work without super powers.

Actually, you don't know that. You are assuming they released them as soon as Ned signed the document. I'll ask again, why would Yoren (who was staying in a run down building) pull the three from the black cells before he needed to leave? Weeks passed between the events. You're telling me Rorge and Biter were just chilling in the back room the entire time?

Ilyn already had the documents and knew of their release, why would he care if the empty cells stayed occupied until Yoren was ready to leave? Let's not forget that he was by himself in the city aside from recruits.

[Hear Us Roar]

Syrio is dead. He served his purpose, it is wishful thinking to think he lives.

[Lummel]

Think about it CoolGirlsMurderFriend.

Trant goes to arrest Arya after the coup has started. And the coup started when Cersei ripped up King Bob's will. At that point The Ned was taken into custody - in the Black Cells. Nobody is going to obey the order to release three prisoners from the Black Cells that is signed by a prisoner in the Black Cells.

We also know that the goaler complains to Jaime that he didn't think that the three should be released and that he complained about it to The Ned. This isn't the man to pass up the opportunity to have kept those three locked up in the Black Cells - because he didn't think that they should be released - not even to the Black Watch which functions effectively as a prison colony that is very remote from Kings Landing.

Yes it's an assumption because it's not explicitly stated in the text but the alternative assumptions such as the goaler obeying the orders signed by an imprisoned man are ridiculous given the setting and characters involved as described.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

That's all this entire conversation is, assumptions. We're going off of what we perceive to be evidence in the text. I'm not trying to open a can of worms here because god knows there are enough threads on this, but the OP's theory was just as flawed as anything else that has been presented.

Neither side of the argument adds up, that's the way GRRM likes it.

[Lummel]

Not really no. That section in AFFC is as explicit a last nail in the coffin of a theory as we get in GRRM. It's pretty clear that Syrio is dead, but there are some people who believe that he is alive and that belief is unquenchable.