Why do people assume that Northmen love the Starks?

[Ramsay Gimp]

On this forum there seems to be an assumption that loyalty to the Starks in the North runs extra-deep, more so than Great Houses in the South. All of the Northern lords must be itching to get a Stark back in Winterfell, except for the Boltons who don't really count, right?

I don't dispute that with a strong leader, House Stark does command tremendous loyalty, like most Houses would. But let's look at the facts:

-On Robb's march South, Greatjon Umber threatens to leave the campaign entirely over a petty squabble. Immediate physical attack by a Direwolf changes his mind

-Rickard Karstark openly defies the Starks, and his men desert the Northern army

-Boltons. Enough said.

-In ADWD we learn that Lady Dustin has a grudge against House Stark and only sent a minimal amount of Dustin troops with Robb to rescue Nedd

But people just gloss over these things. "The Northern lords love the Starks, except for all the ones who, uh, dont" the thinking seems to go. Admittedly, there are Houses that seem to have a special connection to Winterfell, with loyalty that goes above and beyond. I would put House Reed, the Mountain Clans, and probably the Mormonts in this category.

But the rest? I'd say their loyalty depends both on the Head of their House and the ruling Stark in Winterfell. They will take advantage of weakness, and make power grabs if they can get away with it. Just like the majority of noble houses in Westeros.

I'm not trying to pick on the Starks here, or suggest that their bannerment are especially disloyal. I'm only trying to put things in perspective and say that, given the evidence, the Northmen are no more loyal than anyone else

[Winter's Knight]

Didn't the Clans go over to Stannis in Dance?

[Sevumar]

Didn't the Clans go over to Stannis in Dance?

Because Jon gives Stannis a Stark-friendly way of approaching them and pointing out their common cause in the liberation of Deepwood Motte from the Ironmen.

[unRobert]

-Greatjon was sizing up his new lord.

-Cat fucked up. Releasing the Kingslayer was a bad move. I don't think that disproves love for the Starks by the vast majority of the north.

-Well the Boltons are just plan fun.

-Are we really totally sure about Dustin's intents?

I think the Starks are more revered than most of the other houses by their people. That's what happens after 8,000 years. Plenty of textual indications. For one, Bolton can't have any control without marrying into the family.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Didn't the Clans go over to Stannis in Dance?

Yeah, but because he was going to help free The Ned's daughter. There's that little detail.

ETA: And Sevumar is right, Jon tutored Stannis in how to approach them — the way Ned would have approached them. A lot of Stannis' diplomatic success in ADWD is based on advice he got from Jon, who, mentally and culturally, is a Stark.

ETA 2: As to the houses listed:

1. The Greatjon had a pissing-contest moment and likely acted to see how far Robb would go. The Umbers as a whole are and were extremely loyal to the Starks.

2. Rickard Karstark acted out of grief and anger because he lost his sons and because Catelyn screwed up. That had very little to do with loyalty to the Starks in general. Alys Karstark sought Jon out specifically because he was Ned's son and will likely be a key ally.

3. The Boltons are faithless backstabbers and will get what's coming to them, likely largely at the hands of Stark supporters.

4. We don't know what Lady Dustin's real motives are. I think there's sufficient evidence in ADWD that she's not as anti-Stark as she puts on.

I'd also add the Manderlys and Glovers to your list of loyal houses.

[Ramsay Gimp]

-Greatjon was sizing up his new lord.

-Cat fucked up. Releasing the Kingslayer was a bad move. I don't think that disproves love for the Starks by the vast majority of the north.

-Well the Boltons are just plan fun.

-Are we really totally sure about Dustin's intents?

I think the Starks are more revered than most of the other houses by their people. That's what happens after 8,000 years. Plenty of textual indications. For one, Bolton can't have any control without marrying into the family.

-If he loved the Starks so, why undermine their new Lord?

-My point was that House Stark only commands loyalty when they earn it, like any other House.

-The Boltons are northmen, no?

-Until we see actual evidence otherwise, we have to take Lady Dustin at her word

You can make excuses for the various occurences of treachery and disobedience, that doesn't change the fact that they occurred.

You didn't actually give any evidence for your last point. Yes, marrying a Stark gives a usurper a claim to Winterfell. So? I imagine this would apply to Casterly Rock or the Eyrie as well

[StannisBamfatheon]

I mean Wyman Manderly is plotting against the Boltons and asked Davos to go on a borderline suicide mission just to get an infant stark back. An infant boy who he refers to as "my liege-lord" that's loyalty right there. Also it's explicity stated in the text that the only reason the Frey's and Bolton's command the loyalty of the other lords is because of hostages taken at the Red Wedding. Hell even Lady Dustin says the now immortal line "The North Remembers" as in the collective North remembers the Young Wolf who was their King, and all their other kinsmen slain at the hands of the men they must pledge fealty too. It's only a matter of time before the North serves those thieves there just desserts.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

You can say what you will about the North, but 20,000+ soldiers showed up to march south led by a 16 year old boy/man for their liege lord. Besides the Reeds, were there any houses that did not show?

[Ramsay Gimp]

I mean Wyman Manderly is plotting against the Boltons and asked Davos to go on a borderline suicide mission just to get an infant stark back. An infant boy who he refers to as "my liege-lord" that's loyalty right there. Also it's explicity stated in the text that the only reason the Frey's and Bolton's command the loyalty of the other lords is because of hostages taken at the Red Wedding. Hell even Lady Dustin says the now immortal line "The North Remembers" as in the collective North remembers the Young Wolf who was their King, and all their other kinsmen slain at the hands of the men they must pledge fealty too. It's only a matter of time before the North serves those thieves there just desserts.

So that line by Lady Dustin counts, but not the numerous lines where she explicitly states her hatred of House Stark?

I should have included Manderly in my list of extra-loyal houses. Though it does seem he is motivated by vengeance against House Frey/Bolton as much as he is loyalty to House Stark.

It seems there are two camps in the North: the camp that would die for Winterfell gladly and the camp that couldn't give a shit/has their own agenda

[Ramsay Gimp]

You can say what you will about the North, but 20,000+ soldiers showed up to march south led by a 16 year old boy/man for their liege lord. Besides the Reeds, were there any houses that did not show?

And this proves what? Bannermen answered their liege lord, yes. Does this mean that the West universally loves the Lannisters, or that the Reach has a special connection to the Tyrells?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And this proves what? Bannermen answered their liege lord, yes. Does this mean that the West universally loves the Lannisters, or that the Reach has a special connection to the Tyrells?

At the time they mobilized Stannis and Renly had not made a move. So as far as they know it was the North against the other 6 kingdoms and the 'rightful' king.

[A...]

I think the North, being a harsh land populated by people with some portion of willing blood, seems to value the rule of the strong and just as much as the hereditary laws the govern the Seven Kingdoms. I don't think they care as much about house loyalty as personal loyalty. Clearly many northmen were loyal to Ned, because they regarded him as a good man and respected him as their lord. If Ned had had a son like Joffrey, instead of Robb, I do believe the North would have chewed him up and spat his bones out before following him into battle, let alone declaring him King in the North. This attitude is evidenced by the Greatjon's attitude pre finger-loss: he needed to be able to respect his lord before he would bend the knee.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So that line by Lady Dustin counts, but not the numerous lines where she explicitly states her hatred of House Stark?

She rails against House Stark to a mentally fragile Theon in the crypt, knowing and probably expecting that what she says could get back to Roose and/or Ramsay. She's testing him — this is a classic case of "the lady doth protest too much."

I should have included Manderly in my list of extra-loyal houses. Though it does seem he is motivated by vengeance against House Frey/Bolton as much as he is loyalty to House Stark.

Does it have to be one or the other? If he can avenge his family members and men and pay the Starks back for giving his family everything they have — and yes he does mention the Manderlys oath to Davos, not just his desire for revenge — isn't that, like, a twofer?

It seems there are two camps in the North: the camp that would die for Winterfell gladly and the camp that couldn't give a shit/has their own agenda

And I wonder which one will prevail ... hmm ... :)

[Sevumar]

On this forum there seems to be an assumption that loyalty to the Starks in the North runs extra-deep, more so than Great Houses in the South. All of the Northern lords must be itching to get a Stark back in Winterfell, except for the Boltons who don't really count, right?

The Lords Paramount of several regions seem to have a not-quite-subdued or recently subdued rival House which, given an opening, would contest for overlordship of the region. The Starks have their Boltons, the Martells their Yronwoods, and the Tyrells have rivals in House Florent to name a few.

I don't dispute that with a strong leader, House Stark does command tremendous loyalty, like most Houses would.

I think there's a difference in making it clear to the vassals that you won't put up with any shit, like Tywin Lannister, and ruling in a way that endears the vassals to you, like Ned Stark. Some houses seem close to a particular Stark, like the Reeds, while others share a close bond to the House itself, like Manderly.

But people just gloss over these things. "The Northern lords love the Starks, except for all the ones who, uh, dont" the thinking seems to go. Admittedly, there are Houses that seem to have a special connection to Winterfell, with loyalty that goes above and beyond. I would put House Reed, the Mountain Clans, and probably the Mormonts in this category.

Don't forget House Manderly, as demonstrated in Dance. I'd also put House Glover in that category. Don't discount the value of personal retainers, such as the Pooles and the Cassels, although these houses are nearly extinct. As you said, the Mormonts and Reeds sound exceedingly loyal, as do the clans.

The Stark children enjoyed a very close relationship with Cley Cerwyn, but there appears to be no lord left to inherit House Cerwyn and no power base to play a meaningful role in the remainder of the story.

Karstark's status in conflict with the main branch of the Starks seems like a temporary exception to the rule.

Bolton really only seems to have his own men, the Ryswells, and some of the Umbers on his side. Lady Dustin makes a point of going into detail about her grudges against the Starks, but it seems like there's more to her than that. Even if the Dustins are in Bolton's column, that gives him three and a half Northern Houses against some of the most powerful Northern lords willing to go to battle on behalf of the Starks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ I don't think Bolton really has any Umbers on his side. Whoresbane is only there because the Freys have the Greatjon, as Miss Barbrey pointed out. Once word comes that he's been freed, Bolton becomes short half a house.

The Cerwyns and Tallharts will probably bolt as soon as a Stark option comes along, or when the Cerwyns and Tallharts find out exactly how and why Cley Cerwyn and Leobald and Helman Tallhart died.

[Fat Mac]

It seemed as if the Greatjon wanted to see how much he could respect Robb. When Robb did what needed to be done he became a staunch supporter. Hell Smalljon threw himself in front of dozens of crossbow bolts to try and save Robb.

Rickard Karstark was a grieving father. Before his sons died and Jaime was freed he seemed to be quite loyal.

Boltons have warred with the Starks for thousands of years. Their treachery is well known.

Lady Dustin personally had something against Ned. It wasn't necessarily her house that hated him.

It seems to me that Umber, Mormont, Glover, Reed and Manderly are diehard loyal.

[David Selig]

Excuses, excuses...

Fact is so far the Starks have been betrayed by their own bannermen during the course of the books a lot more often than any other great house. Except the Targs, I guess, if we count Robert's rebellion.

[tze]

-On Robb's march South, Greatjon Umber threatens to leave the campaign entirely over a petty squabble. Immediate physical attack by a Direwolf changes his mind

Given what we know about the Umbers, the Greatjon in particular, it seems pretty clear that the Greatjon was never actually going to leave the campaign. The whole incident was a test---remember, Robb was only 15 years old, and as such, he wasn't even legally an adult. The North is a very harsh place, and the Lords of the North don't have the luxury of blindly following a child, especially given that Catelyn was away and there were no Stark uncles/cousins present to back up Robb should he prove to be too immature for this task. Robb had never been to war before, and the life of Ned Stark, the Northmen's beloved liege lord, was at stake (remember, at the time this incident took place, Robb Stark was not the Lord of Winterfell, because Ned Stark was still alive).

-Rickard Karstark openly defies the Starks, and his men desert the Northern army

Rickard Karstark was pretty clearly not in his right mind during this whole series of events. And notice how Lord Rickard's own daughter, Alys, ran to "the last son of Eddard Stark" for help in ADWD, even though 1) another son of Eddard Stark had executed her father and 2) she had to know that the Watch traditionally would not interfere in situations like hers. That Alys decided Jon was her best hope, given what had already happened between her father and Jon's brother, speaks to the way the Starks are viewed in the North.

-Boltons. Enough said.

And the Boltons can't hold the North without pretending to be perpetuating the Stark legacy (via "Arya").

-In ADWD we learn that Lady Dustin has a grudge against House Stark and only sent a minimal amount of Dustin troops with Robb to rescue Nedd

Given that Theon was widely known to be Ramsay's "creature", everything Lady Dustin said to Theon was presumably intended for Theon to repeat to Ramsay. Whom she clearly loathes and wants to destroy. I don't think we can assume that Lady Dustin was truthfully baring her soul to Theon.

[Fat Mac]

Excuses, excuses...

Fact is so far the Starks have been betrayed by their own bannermen during the course of the books a lot more often than any other great house. Except the Targs, I guess, if we count Robert's rebellion.

I'd say Tully's, again counting Robert's Rebellion. Half the houses didn't even side with them. Then the Frey's betrayed them just as much as they betrayed Starks during the RW. Some of the Reach houses technically betrayed the Tyrells when they sided with Stannis. They fought against them on the Blackwater and such.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Excuses, excuses...

Fact is so far the Starks have been betrayed by their own bannermen during the course of the books a lot more often than any other great house. Except the Targs, I guess, if we count Robert's rebellion.

Is there any other house in the series whose bannermen would trek through a goddamn blizzard to defend them? Realistically, I mean. I can't picture any.