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Stark Legacy


jblair

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I know it is pretty much taken for granted that the Stark's have ruled the North well.

But seriously. Has anyone ever stopped to objectively wonder if Stark rule has been such a terrific thing for the North? I mean, apart from the Wall and Winterfell, they haven't really done a whole hell of a lot in a few thousand years. The only port (and actual city) in the entire North came solely from the efforts of exiled Southrons! The North doesn't really seem to produce much of anything - considering all the timber and resources, you would think the North would dominate ship-building, furniture-making, fur-supply, or have an amazing fishing fleet that feeds Westeros. Instead - nothing. After 1000s of years there are some janky villages, a few less-than-imposing castles, and some scattered homesteads. Do Northerners lack any and all impulses to better themselves? And since the Starks have always ruled the North, do they deserve blame for setting the languid tone?

Why does the South even need the North?

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I know it is pretty much taken for granted that the Stark's have ruled the North well.

But seriously. Has anyone ever stopped to objectively wonder if Stark rule has been such a terrific thing for the North? I mean, apart from the Wall and Winterfell, they haven't really done a whole hell of a lot in a few thousand years. The only port (and actual city) in the entire North came solely from the efforts of exiled Southrons! The North doesn't really seem to produce much of anything - considering all the timber and resources, you would think the North would dominate ship-building, furniture-making, fur-supply, or have an amazing fishing fleet that feeds Westeros. Instead - nothing. After 1000s of years there are some janky villages, a few less-than-imposing castles, and some scattered homesteads. Do Northerners lack any and all impulses to better themselves? And since the Starks have always ruled the North, do they deserve blame for setting the languid tone?

Why does the South even need the North?

What's been done elsewhere? The Targs coming from Valyria with all their technology only offer Westeros that marvel of the ages known as the dirt road called the King's Road. The whole series seems geared in a way toward showing a society in stagnation with little men fighting little wars while telling tales around the fire about the amazing heroes of old that built the wonders they inhabit.

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They are content with what they have. They don't need giant castles and 77 courses on a wedding feast to be happy. They obviously have enough food, otherwise they would have start fishing or something like that. Why build a fleet when you don't need it? The castles along the coast do have some fleet I guess, Karhold and Widows Watch for example.

Why improve something when you are already more than content with what you have at the moment? The people in the south can make their own furnishing (they probably don't even like Northern furniture or anything from the North, really..), they can feed themselves as the Reach has a fleet for example. The South already trades with Essos, don't need the North for that.

As to why they need the North, I don't know. I don't think they need it, they just want it. Aegon the Conqueror didn't conquer the North because he needed it for food, for men or for resources.. He just wanted to have the North. ''Look at me, my Kingdom, Lord of Seven Kingdoms, yeehah.'' It's quite big, you know. Always works.

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I would also like to point out that the Starks created White Harbor, not the Manderlys. So that would be an accomplishment of the Starks.

Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.

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Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.

The Greystarks were one of the several off-shoots and bannermen that held White Harbor. I'm under the impression that they didn't build it, so much as it was given to them, until they rebelled.

ETA: Just looked it up. King Jon Stark built it (the main fortress anyway, the city might have come later?) and it was in turn given to cadet members of the family and other bannermen, until they passed it to the Manderlys.

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Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.

The Starks having been handing it around for a long time, it just seems no one ever really stuck.

"It had been raised by King Jon Stark to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders from the sea. Many a younger son of the King in the North had made his seat there, many a brother, many an uncle, many a cousin. Some passed the castle to their own sons and grandsons, and offshoot branches of House Stark had arisen; the Greystarks had lasted the longest,"

"After their fall, the castle had passed through many other hands. House Flint held it for a century, House Locke for almost two. Slates, Longs, Holts, and Ashwoods had held sway here,"

It also knocks down the idea the Manderlys were rewarded for White Harbor for helping against the Bolton rebellion as has been brought up since at least three centuries pass after with others ruling it.

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Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.

The Starks founded it but then later gave it to the Greystarks. IIRC, the founding was discussed in one of Bran's chapters in GOT during one of his lessons.

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They are content with what they have. They don't need giant castles and 77 courses on a wedding feast to be happy. They obviously have enough food, otherwise they would have start fishing or something like that. Why build a fleet when you don't need it? The castles along the coast do have some fleet I guess, Karhold and Widows Watch for example.

Why improve something when you are already more than content with what you have at the moment? The people in the south can make their own furnishing (they probably don't even like Northern furniture or anything from the North, really..), they can feed themselves as the Reach has a fleet for example. The South already trades with Essos, don't need the North for that.

As to why they need the North, I don't know. I don't think they need it, they just want it. Aegon the Conqueror didn't conquer the North because he needed it for food, for men or for resources.. He just wanted to have the North. ''Look at me, my Kingdom, Lord of Seven Kingdoms, yeehah.'' It's quite big, you know. Always works.

Do they have enough food? To eke by, but not to thrive.

They have had 8000 years since the Long Night to prepare for their worst fear, the Others. In that 8000 years they have complacently watched the Wall's efficacy dwindle as they continually struggle with resource and manpower shortages. They have had 8000 year to solve these problems, yet nothing has been done.

It's not like they don't have options: winter aside, the North is full of useful resources: whales, fish, furs, timber, minerals. Why are they not trading heavily with the free cities, even if they had no interest in starting industries of their own? The southern plains could be farmed more effectively (see Canada and Russia) - Winter is used as an excuse for the lack of Northern ambition, but it was shown that not even White Harbor freezes over. That's a lot of land that either isn't affected heavily by winter, or is mild enough that the Manderlys (again - Southrons) seem to thrive.

The point is, Northern culture has appeared to have stagnated for generations, and this has hindered them in their primary mission: to protect against an Other invasion.

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Actually, wasn't it the Greystarks (offshoot branch of the Starks)? When the Greystarks were rooted out after rebelling (allying with the Boltons) White Harbor was granted to the Manderlys. I just re-read DANCE and should remember it better but I don't.

It was a fort called the Wolf's Den before White Harbour was built up around it IIRC the Greystarks held it the longest but it passed through a lot of hands even pirates and slavers before it was granted to the Manderlys.

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I suppose the North makes a good buffer between the south and the wildlings. Much safer for the south to have a Wall and 1000s of miles of snow between it and it's northern neighbours than to have a potentially hostile Northern kingdom sat right above the neck.

As for what the north gets out of the deal... who knows? You'd have to ask Torrhen Stark.

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I would also like to point out that the Starks created White Harbor, not the Manderlys. So that would be an accomplishment of the Starks.

Actually, pirates first used White Harbor. Then a Stark built a castle. But it was the Manderlys who actually turned it into one of the largest settlements in Westeros. After all, why did the Starks give them White Harbor instead of some other land? Perhaps because only Southrons know what the hell do do with an actual city, and other Northern houses lacked the inclination or ability to improve it.

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Actually, pirates first used White Harbor. Then a Stark built a castle. But it was the Manderlys who actually turned it into one of the largest settlements in Westeros. After all, why did the Starks give them White Harbor instead of some other land? Perhaps because only Southrons know what the hell do do with an actual city, and other Northern houses lacked the inclination or ability to improve it.

Sorry but Bloodymime and Apple Martini are right on this one, originally raised by King Jon Stark the pirates got it later on.

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