The guy from the Vale Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I think Ned took only six companions with him because he already had his suspicions what he would find, taking only people he could trust with this secret. So no random soldiers, and particularly Lyanna's close friends (such as Howland Reed).As for who the 'they' were who found Ned, I doubt tese were his soldiers, or the rumours would have spread like wildfire. Rather, I could see 'them' being Howland and the few servants of the Tower of Joy, possibly including Wylla (or Ashara? Unlikely though...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 How many people were in the waiting? Ned had ridden from Storms End and he names the 6 knights that accompany him. Though wraiths of themselves in his dream he knows them by name and most certainly he knows their immediate kin intimately. These are his bannermen and probably the only men, aside from Robert and Jon Arryn, he knew he could trust. Quite frankly they were the best B(ish)-team swordsmen the second Stark son was gonna get.Also I was under the impression that by this point (after Storm's End) Ned wasn't bringing the thunder as much as he was seeking out Lyanna. I thought it was literally just the seven of them, a traditionally lucky number, TB7 ne1?other ideaToJ was run down and really just a jumbling tower. Stones would be strewn about near the base possibly and old walls of stone could be overturned more easily. Ned made use of the pre-loosened stones.anotherNed tore down the tower in his mind? He really just immediately walked out after Lyanna croaked, put Jon in a BabyBjorn and strapped Lyanna behind him as he waved Dawn all the way to Starfall.most likelyHowland Reed played a much larger role in the extraction of Jon and Lyanna's remains, as well as the burial of the 8 slain men.He may have ((and this is crackpot territory)) used magic to help Ned survive and even to pull the tower down. The CotF uprooted an entire land bridge so...om jus sayin.HR most certainly did play a larger role and hopefully his role in the series is not over. We shall see.Still wondering about keeping Jon discrete while some army brutes help you rope up a tower to pull it down for Gods know what reason...HR could take him ahead with Wylla, and Ned would meet them at Starfall later.yea that works,Ned stays behind and oversees the tearing down of ToJ and burial and afterwards he takes Dawn and Lyanna to Starfall and takes possession of Jon there. But I still don't buy it 100%.Just the 7, lucky number 7. 7 on 3. Very nearly a fair fight. And there was no army to fight. By this point the King was a Baratheon and the Targaryens were in exile mode. There was no army so Ned didn't bring one. Whoever told Ned that Lyanna would be at ToJ, (which is another thread I love) would have hinted at an army hanging about.Thats what I think it is, the 7 and no army. Wylla's at Starfall. Infant Jon was sucking the first and last sips of milk from momma wolf's teat when she died and Eddard took him away. Parallel to the direwolf pups, born of the dead?ETA: teat... just teat. Because George would have wanted it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizasterJ Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Can we please create a list of people that actually might very well know about Jon's heritage. I will help start the list.1.Howland Reed: probably still knows, unless he forgot2. Benjen Stark: quite possibly may know, if he's still alive.3. Jojen Reed: may have heard from Howl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 4. Meera Reed: for the same reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I believe Benjen will be the key to the truth of Jon's parentage, if it is to come from a person. We were never told why he joined the watch... We are never told his fate...And he definitely knows SOMETHING... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y ddraig Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 5. WyllaMaybe Ashara Dayne, if alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Bloodraven...and potentially Bran to help sell it to Jon if BR is the one to motivate the feeding of that information to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Okay, so another poster came up with the idea that waking dragons from stone could refer to awaking dormant volcanoes. He thought is was a crackpot idea, but I believe otherwise. Has anyone else ever suggested this idea? I have never seen it before. Many of us that believe R+L=J would also mean that Jon is TPTWP/AAR, so could Jon somehow -given the magical implications surrounding his parentage- awaken a volcano chain? The Frost Fangs maybe? And could this awakening of volcanoes somehow assist in the battle against the Others? I've been drinking a little, so I may be totally out there, but just in case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A... Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Okay, so another poster came up with the idea that waking dragons from stone could refer to awaking dormant volcanoes. He thought is was a crackpot idea, but I believe otherwise. Has anyone else ever suggested this idea? I have never seen it before.Many of us that believe R+L=J would also mean that Jon is TPTWP/AAR, so could Jon somehow -given the magical implications surrounding his parentage- awaken a volcano chain? The Frost Fangs maybe? And could this awakening of volcanoes somehow assist in the battle against the Others?I've been drinking a little, so I may be totally out there, but just in case...Do we have any solid proof there are volcanoes in the Frostfangs? If not - what are the locations of other volcanoes we know? Definitely Valyria and Dragonstone. (Any others?) Perhaps Winterfell - since there seems to be significant geothermal activity there (hot pools) maybe a volcano (long dormant) as well?What could be the strategic significance of waking the volcanoes at the first two locations? I'm thinking none, so therefore I'm inclined to suspect the stone dragon is actually a real dragon - or the volcano is at Winterfell. Although the volcano theory is clever and I like it, as the situation stands right now I don't see any way a volcano on another continent or on a small Island off Westeros could significantly damage hordes of Others + Wights who in all likelihood will be making the land crossing? And I'm still not sold on the Winterfell-sits-on-a-volcano theory, although it might conceivably be possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Does anyone know how the whole R=L=J got started?Who was the person who first came up with the theory?Because it's not like it's really obvious in the books.As Lady Octarina says - people are fully capable to grasp it by themselves, which, IMHO, gives the theory a credit. I put it together on my own, as well. All it took was one thorough reading of Ned's PoVs and combing for hints and details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Do we have any solid proof there are volcanoes in the Frostfangs? If not - what are the locations of other volcanoes we know? Definitely Valyria and Dragonstone. (Any others?) Perhaps Winterfell - since there seems to be significant geothermal activity there (hot pools) maybe a volcano (long dormant) as well?What could be the strategic significance of waking the volcanoes at the first two locations? I'm thinking none, so therefore I'm inclined to suspect the stone dragon is actually a real dragon - or the volcano is at Winterfell. Although the volcano theory is clever and I like it, as the situation stands right now I don't see any way a volcano on another continent or on a small Island off Westeros could significantly damage hordes of Others + Wights who in all likelihood will be making the land crossing? And I'm still not sold on the Winterfell-sits-on-a-volcano theory, although it might conceivably be possible...There were once active volcanoes north of the wall. This is where the Children of the Forest mined obsidian/dragon glass to create their weapons. Obsidian/dragon glass is produced by volcanic activity. This could also have something to do with the heat beneath Winterfell, since it is so close to the North. I'm really starting to like this idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A... Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 There were once active volcanoes north of the wall. This is where the Children of the Forest mined obsidian/dragon glass to create their weapons. Obsidian/dragon glass is produced by volcanic activity. This could also have something to do with the heat beneath Winterfell, since it is so close to the North.I'm really starting to like this idea...You're right, of course about the obsidian, still North of the Wall is pretty vague, I'm hoping Bran might come across some volcanoes on his travels to affirm this idea, if he does, I might just review my thoughts on the stone dragon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Agree Obsidian being volcanic is likely a sign that there has been volcanic activity there. Of course they might have gotten it by trade. If it is like Kryptonite for Others, one would expect it came from where the Others came from if this is supposed to parallel Superman <G>The hot springs of Winterfell represent some shifting of tectonic plates. This can occur inland (see Yellowstone and the hot springs we have in Boise - the houses on Warm Springs Avenue used to be heated by hot springs - and in south central ID. This is the same activity that gives rise to volcanoes, and we also have small volcanoes in Idaho - none active. Doesnt need to be related directly to volcanic activity elsewhere. Yellowstone is basically a volcanic crater and this area might well end up as Valyria and Hardhome did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornucopia Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 To Benjen:I think it's very possible that he knows Jons heritage.It is also weird that he joins the Night's watch shortly after the war. I mean after Brandon's death he is (practically) a spare. If something happened to Ned and Robb ( a good possibility after a bloody war, where many families lost members and could have taken revenge) he would be the Lord of Winterfell.But not after joining the Night's Watch. Even if he was the last of the Stark family.I think he basically "ran" away from his birth family.But why would someone do that?Dislike? I don't think so. Since he still has bonds with his family and visits them sometimes.No perspectives? But as I wrote above: Because of Brandon's death he had more than before as a third son and he was still very young.Guilt over something? That could be possible. Especially because we know almost nothing about that time.But why would he feel guilt? He didn't start the war, he didn't fight in the war, he did nothing wrong (as far as known)But think about Lyanna's kidnapping. It's told she was taken at swordpoint. But we never know who told that.It could have been Benjen. From Bran's vision we know that Lyanna and Benjen were like Bran and Arya. And we know that they are rather close.I think it's possible that Benjen knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they really fell in love and wanted to run away). Because of that I think it's very possible that Lyanna asked him to tell everybody that she was kidnapped/taken/eloped...Nobody (especially not two teenagers - a girl and a third son who aren't as politically savvy as the heir) could have known what followed.But everything could have started with a little lie like that and that is definitely something someone would feel guilt over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Octarina Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 There were once active volcanoes north of the wall. This is where the Children of the Forest mined obsidian/dragon glass to create their weapons. Obsidian/dragon glass is produced by volcanic activity. This could also have something to do with the heat beneath Winterfell, since it is so close to the North.I'm really starting to like this idea...It is a nice idea, better than long dormant dragons coming back o life, certainly. But what would be the significance of a volcano so far North, since it's almost certain the Others, wights and etc will manage to go south of the Wall and affect lives down there? Unless those volcanoes up North affected the "birth" of Others, therefore stopping new ones from arising and allowing humans to eradicate them down south through regular fighting. Or magic.I think it's possible that Benjen knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they really fell in love and wanted to run away). Because of that I think it's very possible that Lyanna asked him to tell everybody that she was kidnapped/taken/eloped...I agree with the rest of your post, but why would she ask him to tell their family she was kidnapped? That's basically asking for a war, or at least for some serious political tension. But, she could have asked him to tell them she went willingly, so that they wouldn't try to interfere with their plans, but either Benjen didn't do as she asked or he didn't manage to convince his family that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 That or he just helped her escape / leave. I have postulated before that the whole swordpoint thing was a lie made up by the house (forgot which) that was hosting her. What else are they going to say? We let him take her? He snuck her out and we had no idea? haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 You're right, of course about the obsidian, still North of the Wall is pretty vague, I'm hoping Bran might come across some volcanoes on his travels to affirm this idea, if he does, I might just review my thoughts on the stone dragon...You're correct, it is still pretty vague...but,The CotF gave the Night's Watch weapons made of obsidian during the Age of Heroes, before the Long Night. At this time the CotF still lived below and above the Wall, so where else would they get the obsidian? I doubt they were visiting Dragonstone or Valyria. Agree Obsidian being volcanic is likely a sign that there has been volcanic activity there. Of course they might have gotten it by trade. If it is like Kryptonite for Others, one would expect it came from where the Others came from if this is supposed to parallel Superman <G>The hot springs of Winterfell represent some shifting of tectonic plates. This can occur inland (see Yellowstone and the hot springs we have in Boise - the houses on Warm Springs Avenue used to be heated by hot springs - and in south central ID. This is the same activity that gives rise to volcanoes, and we also have small volcanoes in Idaho - none active. Doesnt need to be related directly to volcanic activity elsewhere. Yellowstone is basically a volcanic crater and this area might well end up as Valyria and Hardhome did.Who would they have been trading with?Also, the hot springs and other geothermal activity in and surrounding Yellowstone is not due to the shifting of tectonic plates. It is due to hot magma that still lies below the surface of Yellowstone, since Yellowstone is still an 'active' volcano.Former geology minor. ;) It is a nice idea, better than long dormant dragons coming back o life, certainly. But what would be the significance of a volcano so far North, since it's almost certain the Others, wights and etc will manage to go south of the Wall and affect lives down there? Unless those volcanoes up North affected the "birth" of Others, therefore stopping new ones from arising and allowing humans to eradicate them down south through regular fighting. Or magic.To be honest, I have no real idea of why it would be significant. I like your idea that it could affect the birth of the Others. Maybe, it would allow for the Night's Watch to gain more obsidian with the remaining CotF using magic to aid the formation process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 You're correct, it is still pretty vague...but,Who would they have been trading with?Well, there is obsidian in Idaho/Oregon but often distant from sources of obsidian flakes. They would be trading with people who had obsidian.Also, the hot springs and other geothermal activity in and surrounding Yellowstone is not due to the shifting of tectonic plates. It is due to hot magma that still lies below the surface of Yellowstone, since Yellowstone is still an 'active' volcano.Former geology minor. ;) Indeed :) not.http://www.nationalp...earthquakes5284Where do you think magma comes from?Perhaps I should have been more specific and referred to the activity as tectonic plate deformation "Other areas where extensional deformation is occurring within the crust is Basin and Range Province of the western U.S. (eastern California, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, western Wyoming and Arizona) and the Rio Grande Rift, New Mexico. These are also areas of recent basaltic and rhyolitic volcanism." from http://www.tulane.ed...lclandforms.htmEOB for volcano origin discussion at least from this end. A bit of a tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Well, there is no obsidian in Idaho/Oregon but plenty of obsidian flakes. They would be trading with people who had obsidian.This is the issue I have with using real world examples when discussing ASOIAF. It is usually a rule of mine to ignore these examples, but I love geology, so I figured this one would be worth it.I understand that they would be trading with people who had obsidian, but who? I doubt they would trade with anyone in Essos.Indeed :) not.http://www.nationalp...earthquakes5284Where do you think magma comes from?Your article is in reference to earthquakes, and only a set of specific earthquakes surrounding Yellowstone, so it doesn't really have anything to add to our discussion of hot springs and other geothermal activity.Rock is melted to create magma, and magma is not always created through tectonic plate activity. The current theory surrounding Yellowstone is that its magma reservoir is fueled by a plume of hot rock from the Earth's mantle, not a tectonic plate boundary.ETA: The issue is that you are using blanket statements in relation to volcanoes, plate tectonics, magma, and earthquakes. It is A LOT more complicated than that. This is not a geology class, so I'm more than willing to stop this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Okay, so another poster came up with the idea that waking dragons from stone could refer to awaking dormant volcanoes. He thought is was a crackpot idea, but I believe otherwise. Has anyone else ever suggested this idea? I have never seen it before.Many of us that believe R+L=J would also mean that Jon is TPTWP/AAR, so could Jon somehow -given the magical implications surrounding his parentage- awaken a volcano chain? The Frost Fangs maybe? And could this awakening of volcanoes somehow assist in the battle against the Others?I've been drinking a little, so I may be totally out there, but just in case...Speaking of volcanoes, erupting volcanoes could cause mountains to "blow in the wind like leaves." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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