R+L=J v.29

[Bushido]

Nowhere was Artur described - I paid close attention; Funny we don't have his appearance.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

But Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, has silver hair with a black streak, though his parents are unknown. His name would imply that his father was a cadet Dayne but who knows. Could be a cover up and I know many readers have come up with their own parentage story for DS.

ETA: funny that his name is Gerold, as in LC of the KG Gerold Hightower who died with his uncle(??) AD at ToJ. My crackpot: DS and Aegon and Jon are triplets or R + L = A + J + G

[Budj]

It's because Mance is Arthur :fencing:

Maybe not...but I think that would be an awesome twist.

[Lady Octarina]

But Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, has silver hair with a black streak, though his parents are unknown. His name would imply that his father was a cadet Dayne but who knows. Could be a cover up and I know many readers have come up with their own parentage story for DS.

ETA: funny that his name is Gerold, as in LC of the KG Gerold Hightower who died with his uncle(??) AD at ToJ. My crackpot: DS and Aegon and Jon are triplets or R + L = A + J + G

lol

I would support this if Darkstar didn't seem to be older than Jon.

But you're right, Gerold is a Dayne from High Hermitage; if I'm not mistaken they pay fealty to the Daynes of Starfall.

It's because Mance is Arthur :fencing:

Maybe not...but I think that would be an awesome twist.

That would be perfect, but since Mance is described as average-looking or something like that (as in brown hair, brown eyes) and hardly behaves like the knight everyone says Ser Arthur was, I'd say he's probably Whent in disguise. Just because.

[Budj]

Not arguing your additional theory there, because that works too! but I thought Mance had blue or gray eyes?

[Maxpey]

Not arguing your additional theory there, because that works too! but I thought Mance had blue or gray eyes?

Although I love the theory, IIRC correctly Mance is described as having brown hair and brown eyes in one of Jon's POVs (I think it's the first one) in aSoS.

[Masamune]

It has to be R+L =J.... Doesn't it?

The only alternative is that Ned got some wench/wildling/nobleman's daughter up the duff. Wow... What a twist. So what if it was Ashara Dayne? How does that change anything about anything? No, it's got to be R+L=J. It just makes too much damn sense.

[Budj]

Although I love the theory, IIRC correctly Mance is described as having brown hair and brown eyes in one of Jon's POVs (I think it's the first one) in aSoS.

Thanks for the clarification. Wonder where I got confused.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

1) Not at all. There IS a mystery surrounding Jon's birth no matter which way you look at it. As I said in my original post, "even if Ned is the father" there's still the question of who Jon's mother is and why Ned would dishonor himself to father a bastard. That's a question which needs to be answered, and Benjen Stark is a likely candidate to hold the answer. No bootstrapping is required, because whether it's through Ned or Lyanna that Jon gets his Stark blood from, there's STILL a mystery surrounding the circumstances of his birth.

2) If Ned Stark wouldn't even talk about Jon's parentage to Robert Baratheon and ordered his wife to never speak on the subject again, why would he have it written down? Why would anyone who knew it write it down if it were that serious? Nevermind that having Jon stumble on a random book or notepad with the truth would be incredibly anticlimatic. "Jon pulls out Eddard's daily planner and reads what Lord Stark wrote on the date of his birth. 'Killed three Kingsguard. Found Lyanna dead. Took her baby with me and claimed he was my bastard.'". Whatever the truth is, it'd have a much more dramatic impact if it came from the mouth of another character rather than being read off a ledger.

3) Certainly, but Benjen Stark is a relative and someone whose word means something to Jon, so who better?

4) Writing 101. You don't introduce mysteries and harp on them unless you intend for them to pay off down the road (or unless you're a staff writer for Lost, in which case you don't have to concern yourself with explaining mysteries). Jon absolutely must find out, otherwise all those pages spent from Jon's point of view wondering who his mother was is wasted space.

I'm so happy you fleshed that out. I wanted to comment on the plausibility of the other ideas, but I was so upset about the initial post I had to take a step back. :laugh:

Jon finding the truth of his parentage on a piece of paper would be dumb on Ned's part; but him finding a 'clue' about his parentage in the crypts, and then have someone -like Benjen- tell him the truth would be wonderful. I have this nagging feeling that something is going on in the crypts, but I have no idea what it might be. :bang:

I also love your name, and am currently watching Thor as I browse the site. :lol:

[Sasha Steelsong]

I think Ned took only six companions with him because he already had his suspicions what he would find, taking only people he could trust with this secret. So no random soldiers, and particularly Lyanna's close friends (such as Howland Reed).

As for who the 'they' were who found Ned, I doubt tese were his soldiers, or the rumours would have spread like wildfire. Rather, I could see 'them' being Howland and the few servants of the Tower of Joy, possibly including Wylla (or Ashara? Unlikely though...)

I think this played a big part in things. Frankly I first thought about R+L=J when I read Lyanna's abduction story in the beginnings of GOT. Taken a year before her death, kept in seclusion, and likely having a fair amount of sex (consentual or otherwise - at the time I thought it might still have been rape but have since changed my mind), it shocked me that no one questioned Ned when he showed up with a baby and Lyanna's bones since a baby is a likely consequence of the above circumstance. Now I get that Ned getting up and saying this is my bastard son would probably shocked enough people that no one would question, but I also don't think Ned was just lucky that only close friends were with him when he went to the TOJ. Even if he knew nothing about the real nature of the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna (and personally I'm inclined to think he might have had some kind of clue even if he didn't know for certain), the above circumstances would still be in play so it seems to me the possibility of a baby or pregnant sister played into his decision as to whom to take.

[SteelAndSnow]

I'm so happy you fleshed that out. I wanted to comment on the plausibility of the other ideas, but I was so upset about the initial post I had to take a step back. :laugh:

Jon finding the truth of his parentage on a piece of paper would be dumb on Ned's part; but him finding a 'clue' about his parentage in the crypts, and then have someone -like Benjen- tell him the truth would be wonderful. I have this nagging feeling that something is going on in the crypts, but I have no idea what it might be. :bang:

I also love your name, and am currently watching Thor as I browse the site. :lol:

EXACTLY!! I do too and I've said it before but what in seven hells could it possibly be?!! Its driving me nuts to be honest. And I've ruled out the possibility of its being a document of some sort because, well, what document could it be? Aerys wouldn't sign anything I'm positive. It's something else. BUT WHAT? :bang:

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

just found an image on Jon in the graphic novel, and he looks shockingly Targaryen like. If his hair was silver he looks to be a spitting image of Rhaegar.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

It has to be R+L =J.... Doesn't it?

The only alternative is that Ned got some wench/wildling/nobleman's daughter up the duff. Wow... What a twist. So what if it was Ashara Dayne? How does that change anything about anything? No, it's got to be R+L=J. It just makes too much damn sense.

it would make the epic battle of Howland Reed and Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne even more incredible.

[Elric the White Wolf]

From lurking around I get the feeling that Kit isn't looked upon favorably on these boards. I can understand why, book Jon brings to mind a much different looking person. I feel Kit does a wonderful job, though hate the way Jon is written on the show. And personally I think he exudes that "Rhaegar effect" devastatingly well. As best seen during the scene where he's atop the wall with his hair prettily blowing in the wind and a haunted look upon his face :wub: . I feel you Jon Con!

Well, I agree with you entirely -- we love Kit in our house, so there are definitely Kit fans lurking about on this thread. I think he's splendid as Jon, actually -- I think Kit has a beautiful face (chubby?? goodness, he was skinny as a twig in the scene in which the three young lads had their shirts off in season one). His eyes are very expressive, and as you point out, he is able to convey that sensitive, melancholy quality that no doubt comes from his (Jon's) father -- his Targaryen father that is!

[peasant]

This was an excerpt from my ADWD reviews and I thought to share it with you... beware for those who haven't read the entire 1-5 books.. :)

In the first book, GOT, (though I ignored this at first) we knew he was a bastard of Ned Stark to some woman named Wylla. It was a pity that Jon suffered emotional torture from Catelyn Stark. I couldn’t blame Catelyn if her honorable husband had bedded this wench of a woman and to think, according to King Robert Baratheon, (if I read it correctly), he loved Wylla. Okay, I did bought that alibi. My suspicion arrived only when Ned and Robert were down the abyss of Winterfell, where, Starks were buried and Ned, remembered clearly how Lyanna Stark said her last words. “Promise me, Ned, promise me.” And all clear to me what was the promise Lyanna mentioned to him on her deathbed? It’s kind of weird.

And then, when Arya was in Harrenhaal, a certain Dornish noble boy, (i forgot his name, sorry.), mention that Jon Snow was his milk-nurse brother or whatever that is, though it occured to me, that Jon and him shared a woman who breastfeeds them and know by the name Wylla. His aunt and Ned were a lover according to him but when Ned chose Catelyn to wed, she threw himself on a cliff. I assume that before Catelyn was to be wed to Ned (which she was formerly bethroted to Ned’s brother), Ned, loved this Wylla or this Dornish lady. But the tides turned when Ned’s Brother died in the hands of the Mad King Aerys when Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar which in my part, I believe Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar. Remember, during the tourney in King’s Landing, it wasn’t Elia-princess of Dorne, whom he crowned as a woman of love and beauty, but Lyanna. So yeah, I speculated that during their runaway, Rhaegar and Lyanna did conceived somewhat a child perhaps..or rather Jon Snow. Yeah, yeah, I know that was pretty much of an speculation, and yeah I’m getting loco about this whole scenario. What would be the promise of Lyanna that she needed Ned to solemnly swear the promise? Absurd? The only lead to this was Holand Reed-father of Jojeen and Meera Reed, the companion of Bran Stark. Holand was the living survivor and the only witness of what really happened at the Tower of Joy. I hope Martin would include him as a POV characters but I had my high hopes, Bran will look it through the godswood or I’m betting, the last chapters of ADWD, wherein, Jon was in the verge of life and death, would come across towards the Reed. Until so, these are all a big guess. Okay, back to my hypothesis, No one saw or probably on accounts that this Wylla did conceived Jon Snow. The lad of whom, Arya met on Harrenhaal said could then be fact, we will assume. Notice that the young boy said, Jon was his milk-nurse. Probably, Ned paid Wylla to have done so to care for Jon and then returns to Winterfell. My guess also about the aunt of that lad, who threw himself on a cliff was too absorbed or might guess of Ned’s affair to Wylla thus jealousy overtook her and ended her life. (Now that was absurd, but hey, I have a wild imagination, so, that was my best guess for that woman). Anyway even Ned agrees that it cost so much on his part like the untimely death of the woman (whom he loved mostly), his honor was tainted as everyone knows he brought a child with him on Winterfell, and he couldn’t say a word of Jon’s mother even to Jon himself. You would say, that, Jon possessed all the Northmen’s physical appearances-had a resemblance of Ned too. I think it was Sansa who was absorbed to the idea that maybe Arya was a bastard like Jon since all three of them looks like the Tully’s and Ned. Apparently, Catelyn said Arya looks like Lyanna, a Stark for the matter. So if Arya and Jon looks like exactly, then it could be that Jon resembles Lyanna. The hair of Targaeryens are silvery white and eyes of purple aren’t what Jon’s characteristics. I remember, during the capture of Arianne, I hope I’m correct, there was this silvery haired girl with eyes of purple, sorry I don’t seem to recall her name, and she wasn’t related to the Targaeryens. Yes. So it’s a possible that, Jon inherit the attributes of the north and not of the Targaeryens, and of course, Jon was a warg of course. Symbolically, I think having Ghost, his albino direwolf, was an indication that probably he was a Targ. I’m assuming, Martin has to relate Jon or connect him to the targs by means of having a White Direwolf by his side. If Jon was a Targ, he has the right to claim the Iron throne, but he was a bastard to start with. I assumed Rhaegar wed Lyanna. It could be, who knows what really happened in the Tower of Joy, besides, by polygamy, Rhaegar can wed anyone. Or if not, I would seem to recall and hoping for the best that before the Red Wedding, Robb signed a waiver that a King in the North would likely accept Jon as a rightful heir to the North, thus, legitimizing him. Legitimizing Jon could also possibly mean that he can claim the throne-the Iron throne. (but that letter hasn’t resurfaced yet). I’m thinking about Jon’s death could possibly mean him free from his vows, could father a son (by which I was hoping for Daeny..lol) and take the Iron throne with Dany.

You've almost summarized the whole 5 books of ASOIF!! good work lad. Before i started posting i've read the theory of R+L=J v.1 and still reading v. 29. I don't think this theory will go end till the last book revealed. People are keep saying the whole thing over and over and over again. But it's good though for the new ones who just started the books. Sometimes if i feel board reading the same thing in here i tried to amuse myself reading the other theory like N + L =J, or A + L =J and lots of theory of match making :box: . It's fun when suddenly they will tell something in the book that probably you've miss out reading it. :cool4:

[Thor Odinson]

I recall Lost being a big hit.

I remember that as well. I also remember the howls of fury that erupted when the finale aired and so many of the mysteries were left unanswered. So much so that they had to film a webseries after the fact to answer them. Lost is a prime example of what NOT to do when you layer mystery after mystery after mystery in your story, because if you have no idea where those mysteries are going, then it's going to show bigtime when you get to the end of the story, and you're going to piss off all your fans who thought you actually knew what you were doing only to be proven shockingly wrong.

[JBThazard]

it would make the epic battle of Howland Reed and Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne even more incredible.

THIS.

[Alia of the knife]

But Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, has silver hair with a black streak, though his parents are unknown. His name would imply that his father was a cadet Dayne but who knows. Could be a cover up and I know many readers have come up with their own parentage story for DS.

ETA: funny that his name is Gerold, as in LC of the KG Gerold Hightower who died with his uncle(??) AD at ToJ. My crackpot: DS and Aegon and Jon are triplets or R + L = A + J + G

Well, as long as we're playing outside the box.....

I know people hate this type of theory, (and they are all theories at this point), but I actually could live with this more than three DIFFERENT babies being switched. It is fantasy, and if Lucas and Herbert could do twins, who is to say Martin wouldn't take it a step further.

Twins do run in the Targaryen line, but triplets would make Rhaegars Three heads of the dragon more signifigant- one womb of a woman with the bloodline of Wargs to produce three dragons.

It addresses:

- Lyannas death. It's true childbirth can kill the strongest of women, but Lyanna seems the least likely Candidate unless something unusual happened.

- It could explain the reason why the best fighters were at TOJ, rather than KL, and Dayne said himself "woe to the Usurper" had they been present.

If Rhaegar found out that Lyanna carried three, that may have been one of the things that determined that he was wrong about Elias son being the TPtWP.

- We don't have a real age on Darkstar, but given Darkstars own wild behavior, he could mirrorLyanna, Jon mirrors Rhaegar, Aegon is a mix of both personalities -thoughtful and wild.

Another theory, and one I tend to lean more towards.

I think Arya will figure prominently in destroying Cersei.

Since I think she'll actually be more beautiful than Sansa, she may be the younger, more beautiful Queen Maggie the Frog warned Cersei about, (and yes, I think Martin would do this to poor Arya, just because she thought that stuff was for "other" girls).

It would impact Cersei more. She knows Sansa, she knows Margery, and doesn't think they are more beautiful than her. I think Dany will go mad, so she won't be a factor, so Arya could end up with Aegon, if he's real, (I personally think he's a Blackfyre), because he would need the North, and Jon being Lyannas son doesn't neccessarily guarentee the North.

OR

The naming of the Direwolves are signifigant, and Aryas direwolf is named for Nymeria, the warrior Queen, another Poster theorized that perhaps it takes another direwolf to mount/mate with Nymeria.

If Darkstar(k) is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne, (which I personally believe), then he has the blood of the Direwolf, and though a cousin, not as bad as a sibling.

And it might take the most dangerous man in Dorne to mate with the most dangerous woman in Westeros. :angry2:

[rmholt]

I remember that as well. I also remember the howls of fury that erupted when the finale aired and so many of the mysteries were left unanswered. So much so that they had to film a webseries after the fact to answer them. Lost is a prime example of what NOT to do when you layer mystery after mystery after mystery in your story, because if you have no idea where those mysteries are going, then it's going to show bigtime when you get to the end of the story, and you're going to piss off all your fans who thought you actually knew what you were doing only to be proven shockingly wrong.

Your opinion. I'm actuallly fine with however GRRM goes with this.

[Booknerd2]

I've checked out this thread from time to time though I only started posting recently. Totally did not pick up on R+L=J during my first book 1 read until I became aware of the theory online. But any mention of Jon with Ned was so awkward it totally stuck out even the first time that something was up.

Really, such an issue is made of Ned being uncomfortable when questioned about Jon's mother, the most notable when Robert mentions it, that when I re-read Book 1 it just started to make sense.

My biggest sticking point is that Ned never refers to Jon as his son. I think he said you are a "Stark" or "of my blood" or something like that and then I really got into the theory,among other compelling evidence with Ned's recollections of Lyanna. Awesome that this thread is now up to v.29 but hardly suprising.