StannisBamfatheon Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I'm not saying they weren't great kingsguard or swordsmen, all of them were hallowed in that regard. But once they swore the oath to Aerys they forsook their vows of knighthood, particularly in defending those who can't defend themselves. At one point does your Kingsguard vow supercede your knight's vow and become a catch-all statement allowing you to ignore your moral compass and misgivings regarding your king? You said some words so that allows you to press the off button on your conscience? I am ofcourse referring to the many cruel acts of Aerys and how the Kingsguard watched and did nothing. Specifically the "trial" of Brandon and Rickard. How "bold" of Barristan to just sit by and watch when Aerys burned the Warden of the north. "I....errr....uhh....ahhh...but I swore a vow!!" How could they stand by their King after this tragedy? They watched and did nothing, and they watched and did nothing when Aerys abused Rhaella. Ironically the one whose perceived to be the most "dishonorable" was Jaime Lannister and he was the only one who wanted to help her. I just don't really understand how they could be so loyal to a man so despotic, cruel, and insane. Even at the Tower of Joy they are still leal to him, "woe to the usurper if we had been" "aerys would yet sit the iron throne and our false brother would burn in the seven hells" etc....I mean they saw the trial, the burnings, all the madness of Aerys yet still wished him to rule? If seems to me the Kingsguard vows blinded them to reality and their own views of right and wrong. Or perhaps they were all just as mad and cruel as Aerys. In the words of a true Knight, Sir Davos Seaworth, loyalty means telling hard truths, including to yourself, and the truth was Aerys was unfit to rule and worthy of deposition. They should have made peace with that not fight to a pointless bitter end for morally bankrupt king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes, pretty much. Their excuse reeks of Nuremberg, nothing admirable about these assholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes its a real shame that the word honour is used so much with the KG whom we mostly associate with Roberts useless seven or Aerys'. Aerys' KG were blinded by their oaths. If nothing else one of them should have found Rhaegar and let him stop Aerys, therebystopping his atrocities while raising no sword himself and so foresaking their vows. To call Jaime Kingslayer and dishonourable for this act is in part unfair i think. Id like to think if i was in his situation i would have tried to stop Aerys.I think each of the seven must have forgotten the part which made them worthy of the white cloak in the first place during the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I'm not saying they weren't great kingsguard or swordsmen, all of them were hallowed in that regard. But once they swore the oath to Aerys they forsook their vows of knighthood, particularly in defending those who can't defend themselves. At one point does your Kingsguard vow supercede your knight's vow and become a catch-all statement allowing you to ignore your moral compass and misgivings regarding your king? You said some words so that allows you to press the off button on your conscience? I am ofcourse referring to the many cruel acts of Aerys and how the Kingsguard watched and did nothing. Specifically the "trial" of Brandon and Rickard. How "bold" of Barristan to just sit by and watch when Aerys burned the Warden of the north. "I....errr....uhh....ahhh...but I swore a vow!!"How could they stand by their King after this tragedy? They watched and did nothing, and they watched and did nothing when Aerys abused Rhaella. Ironically the one whose perceived to be the most "dishonorable" was Jaime Lannister and he was the only one who wanted to help her. I just don't really understand how they could be so loyal to a man so despotic, cruel, and insane. Even at the Tower of Joy they are still leal to him, "woe to the usurper if we had been" "aerys would yet sit the iron throne and our false brother would burn in the seven hells" etc....I mean they saw the trial, the burnings, all the madness of Aerys yet still wished him to rule? If seems to me the Kingsguard vows blinded them to reality and their own views of right and wrong. Or perhaps they were all just as mad and cruel as Aerys. In the words of a true Knight, Sir Davos Seaworth, loyalty means telling hard truths, including to yourself, and the truth was Aerys was unfit to rule and worthy of deposition. They should have made peace with that not fight to a pointless bitter end for morally bankrupt king.Just to play Devil's Advocate . It's not the Kingsquards responsibilty to defend the Lord of the North and his Heir from the King. It's their responsibilty to protect themselves, Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark should have brought an army to King's Landing. What should the Kingsquard have done? Killed the King and start a Civil War? They swore an oath to protect the royal family not to play the Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooManyFreys Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 This is where the breakdown between serving the king and serving the realm happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouKnowNothing. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Agree too. The kingsguard protect the King from everybody but can't protect the King from himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisBamfatheon Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes, pretty much. Their excuse reeks of Nuremberg, nothing admirable about these assholes.We were just following orders.>_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe they didn't wished him to rule, but they took vows and it wouldn't have helped if they stood up. Aerys would immediately kill them and take others for Kingsguard. Nothing changed. But you're right, that doesn't mean they are not a bunch of assholes. They should've protected Rhaella against the king and I can't stand they watched and stood by during the trial or Brandon and Rickard Stark. I know Ned Stark admires Ser Barristan a lot, but I just can't understand why everyone in Westeros deem Barristan and Dayne for example, that honorable or great knights. Yes, they were great knights in the sense that they were exceptionally skilled swordfighters, but apart from that, they were absolutely not knights.Jaime Lannister did what was right. Maybe not in an honorable manner, but I absolutely don't blame him for killing Aerys. He should've done it earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Im on board with this SB. KG in general is super lame. No wives, no nothing but protect some king no matter what he does or his family does. Aerys KG are a bunch of hypocrites acting so honorable (except somewhat Jamie)Jamie did it when he had a chance to do it and live. Seems he was pretty lucky that he was the only one there while 3 were with the kings brother's gf and bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 The Hound has always been right, knights are really just hypocrites. The forsake one vow for another and Jaime is the biggest hypocrite of all, Dayne and Selmy are close behind.But the people believe in them and thats why they still exist, because people want to believe in true honourable knights. Put honest men in your Kingsguard (or personal guard), like the Hound, and the people lose faith because they dont indulge the fantasies that they have in their minds of what knights should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Aerys kingsguard was composed of some of the most loyal and skilled swordsmen in the realm, they were loyal to themselves. They saw the king commiting numerous acts of madness and cruelty and did nothing, wether they did nothing out of fear or laziness I cant say. I dont understand all the love these guys get, im glad ned and his companions killed them on the trident and at the toj, barristan never got his but he will. Another joke of a man he watched arys commit numerous atrocities and now tries to put his daughter on the throne, what a moron. Ned/Robert and jon put an end to Targ cruelty and insanity, without dragons they are nothing but incestuous madmen. the seven kingdoms will fracture soon and no targ will rule any part of westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooManyFreys Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 So what I'm getting is that you guys WOULDN'T take orders from your direct superior and "God" given leader of your kingdom?Jaime is probably the most courageous KG in the sense of the word, but knights in general were never gallant, they follow orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe they didn't wished him to rule, but they took vows and it wouldn't have helped if they stood up. Aerys would immediately kill them and take others for Kingsguard. Nothing changed.But you're right, that doesn't mean they are not a bunch of assholes. They should've protected Rhaella against the king and I can't stand they watched and stood by during the trial or Brandon and Rickard Stark. I know Ned Stark admires Ser Barristan a lot, but I just can't understand why everyone in Westeros deem Barristan and Dayne for example, that honorable or great knights. Yes, they were great knights in the sense that they were exceptionally skilled swordfighters, but apart from that, they were absolutely not knights.Jaime Lannister did what was right. Maybe not in an honorable manner, but I absolutely don't blame him for killing Aerys. He should've done it earlier.Im on board with this SB. KG in general is super lame. No wives, no nothing but protect some king no matter what he does or his family does. Aerys KG are a bunch of hypocrites acting so honorable (except somewhat Jamie)Jamie did it when he had a chance to do it and live. Seems he was pretty lucky that he was the only one there while 3 were with the kings brother's gf and bastard.Its amazing that the least appreciated member of the KG in Westeros is seen as the best of them in our world. I do find it mystifying that Arthur Dayne, who won the smallfolks love during the Kingswood rebellion, didnt do anything to stop Aerys.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe they didn't wished him to rule, but they took vows and it wouldn't have helped if they stood up. Aerys would immediately kill them and take others for Kingsguard. Nothing changed.But you're right, that doesn't mean they are not a bunch of assholes. They should've protected Rhaella against the king and I can't stand they watched and stood by during the trial or Brandon and Rickard Stark. I know Ned Stark admires Ser Barristan a lot, but I just can't understand why everyone in Westeros deem Barristan and Dayne for example, that honorable or great knights. Yes, they were great knights in the sense that they were exceptionally skilled swordfighters, but apart from that, they were absolutely not knights.Jaime Lannister did what was right. Maybe not in an honorable manner, but I absolutely don't blame him for killing Aerys. He should've done it earlier.he also threw a 5 year out of a window to what he thought was his death , Barristan and Arthur Dayne would never have done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet April Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I've always been bothered by this as well. We're lead to believe that Aery's KG was made up of the most honorable men (excepting Jaime, of course), yet they all stood by while Aerys committed his numerous atrocities. Jaime obviously has tremendous respect for Aery’s KG, but in re-reads of ACOK it seems ironic when Jaime says, “That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree” when he is telling Catelyn that Ser Hightower told him that it wasn’t Jaime’s place to judge the king as Rickard is being burned alive and Brandon is being strangled to death in his futile attempt to save his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 he also threw a 5 year out of a window to what he thought was his death , Barristan and Arthur Dayne would never have done that.Well, I wasn't talking about that act, I was talking about Jaime killing Aerys. What other things he did didn't concern me in that comment. And how would you know Dayne and Barristan wouldn't have done that?They should have acted when they didn't. Watching how two men are gruesomely murdered, doing nothing while a woman gets raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 So what I'm getting is that you guys WOULDN'T take orders from your direct superior and "God" given leader of your kingdom?Jaime is probably the most courageous KG in the sense of the word, but knights in general were never gallant, they follow orders.Don't know if I would have the courage, but I admire this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Its amazing that the least appreciated member of the KG in Westeros is seen as the best of them in our world. I do find it mystifying that Arthur Dayne, who won the smallfolks love during the Kingswood rebellion, didnt do anything to stop Aerys....He got the coolest handle/nickname out of it too. I wish he embraced it more.I still think he's a psychopath though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Don't know if I would have the courage, but I admire this guy: http://en.wikipedia....on_StauffenbergI think wed all like to think wed do what is right but nobody knows until there in that position. Still though :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisBamfatheon Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 He got the coolest handle/nickname out of it too. I wish he embraced it more.I still think he's a psychopath though.But guys he's the sword of morning!! :ohwell:It seems so odd Ned remembers him fondly considering he stood by and watched his father burn and his brother sadistically strangled...likewise for Barristan when they reminisce about the Trident and Ned says "Sir Barrastan is a good man a loyal man yadda yadda" during Cersei's coup. Ned is way to forgiving to them IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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