The Wonders Of Being A Woman In The World Of ASOIAF

[Thunderfist]

As a woman in Westeros you have many fierce and vocal supporters on these forums who know for a fact that all women are always oppressed and getting the worst deal everywhere and in every situation. And if anyone disagrees with this, they are likely to be the target of intensive forum-bullying and ridicule.

[janedl]

Wonderful architecture

Unspoiled countryside

No pollution

Organic food

But those are good things for everyone. For women specifically? Pretty dresses is about it!

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

As a woman in Westeros you have many fierce and vocal supporters on these forums who know for a fact that all women are always oppressed and getting the worst deal everywhere and in every situation. And if anyone disagrees with this, they are likely to be the target of intensive forum-bullying and ridicule.

~slow clap~

:cheers:

[Ravenhair]

As a woman in Westeros you have many fierce and vocal supporters on these forums who know for a fact that all women are always oppressed and getting the worst deal everywhere and in every situation. And if anyone disagrees with this, they are likely to be the target of intensive forum-bullying and ridicule.

Nope. It's called having "real" power, which according to some is a "wonder" of being a woman in Westeros. Don't get me wrong; anyone who knows my stance on most things on this forum knows I'm a Howard Stern-listening, Jaime-defending wing nut. The fact remains being a man in Westeros sucks. Being a woman in Westeros sucks worse.

[SteelAndSnow]

Nope. It's called having "real" power, which according to some is a "wonder" of being a woman in Westeros. Don't get me wrong; anyone who knows my stance on most things on this forum knows I'm a Howard Stern-listening, Jaime-defending wing nut. The fact remains being a man in Westeros sucks. Being a woman in Westeros sucks worse.

Exactly. And is it any surprise to anybody that this thread has double the number of replies than The Wonders Of Being A Man?

[butterbumps!]

The fact remains being a man in Westeros sucks. Being a woman in Westeros sucks worse.

I have to agree with this. The system sucks for everyone, but it's especially rigged against women.

On a more positive note, it does seem like there's some cultures that approach women with more respect than Westeros. I think being a Wildling woman wouldn't be terribly worse than being a man (the men come to steal you, but they'd better be clever since you carry a blade). Also, there seems to be female worship amongst the Summer Islanders-- how Chataya is some form of priestess in her culture. In Meereen, the Graces are a revered institution, as well as is their symbol of the (female) Harpy. Granted the Graces acolyte as sexual priestess, but it seems that outside of Westeros, there's a very different understanding of sex. The Dothraki also revere the Dosh Khaleen, and call their sacred place the "Womb of the World;" of course, the Dothraki institution is problematic in terms of being a "gilded cage," but the point about female worship outside of Westeros still stands.

[garçon]

Just off the top of my head, true you don't have to prove yourself bt killing someone. No, instead, as a woman, you must prove yourself by fertile and bearing sons, and if they aren't sons, you will be blamed and deemed inadequate.

True, you don't have as great a risk of being injured, maimed, etc. what you do have as a woman is an incredibly high mortality rate when it comes to childbirth. Should anything go wrong, medicine was not sufficiently advanced to handle it; therefore, you will die.

You don't have real power if your husband can fuck you or rape you any time he wants, and you have no recourse. You have no say over your body, your wants, or your desires; therefore, you can never have real power.

You mention one "wonder" that a woman has as being more likely to be raped than killed. I'll grant you that death is final, but listing a "wonder" as rejoicing over the fact that while you may not die, you'll just be raped boggles the mind. Of course, most,but not all, Westerosi men are just in danger of being killed, yet somehow I don't see them saying if only I were a woman, I'd just be raped instead.

Selling your child is not a wonder, whether man or woman.

Sandor, Jaime, and others go to great pains to teach us that not every knight is good. Do you think if Sansa said pretty please, the KG wouldn't have beat her? Or maybe if only Elia knew how to manipulate knights correctly (she didn't say pretty please with a cherry on top) that Ser Gregor wouldn't have raped or killed her?

are you playing me the card "you think losing an arm is difficult ? try giving birth to a baby !!" ?

no seriously, I thought this topic was about listing the good things, I never deny the difficulties of being a woman in westeros, I'm just saying war is frightening, I don't like to fight, I don't like to stop swords with my head and since , as a noble woman those things are not expected from you, yes to me it is a wonder to be able to stay away from that.

your husband, if he is an asshole, can abuse you, never said the contrary, no one will come for you. I was referring to the fact that : you don't take care of the food, the money, the lords, you do nothing yet people will obey you, you have servant, guards, swordsmen, yes the wife is under the husband but under the wife is everybody else.

for the rape, of course no one will say that, of course even after no one will think "it could have been worse", it's a cold logical statement from me, an observer of the wild life. That's an awful thing to say, obviously too subjective, probably misplaced yet when I think of the worse things that could happen to me, death is worse than raped. But....yeah this one is probably my fault.

on the knight topic...what ? when I said the "knight/gentlemen wanna-be" I was talking about naive people like Bran at the beginning when he thinks of becoming a knight, the ideal knight, and this ideal defends the weak folks and women. In fact I don't really know how to explain it, simple people who dreams of being honorable like in the songs ?

Anyway all the things you say are true, all the things I say are true, you are listing the bad sides, I'm listing the good ones as asked by the person who created this topic. As I see it this topic was meant to look on the bright side of things, a nice idea and this discussion is ruining it so I will stop there.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Lemoncakes can only be enjoyed in all their glory by females: the estrogen brings out the full flavor of the lemon. Men can only dream of the wonder of the lemoncake. That totally makes up for all the misogyny, rape, lack of civil rights etc. It is known.

[courser]

Actually if you were a peasant it seems that, outside of a war situation, you're life is pretty boring and mundane. You didn't have money or lands so you're not married off for power, you actually get a bit of choice in who you marry (blacksmith, cobbler, baker, farmer etc.). Food would probably be touch and go and during 'winter' life would be rough unless you were beholden to a lord who put enough food away.

There is also a whole class of merchants that we don't see or hear but obviously have to exist. Myrish lace has to be made somewhere...

Boring and mundane works for me... if the choice is to play the game of thrones or raise pigs...I'll raise the damn pigs.

[Ravenhair]

are you playing me the card "you think losing an arm is difficult ? try giving birth to a baby !!" ?

no seriously, I thought this topic was about listing the good things, I never deny the difficulties of being a woman in westeros, I'm just saying war is frightening, I don't like to fight, I don't like to stop swords with my head and since , as a noble woman those things are not expected from you, yes to me it is a wonder to be able to stay away from that.

your husband, if he is an asshole, can abuse you, never said the contrary, no one will come for you. I was referring to the fact that : you don't take care of the food, the money, the lords, you do nothing yet people will obey you, you have servant, guards, swordsmen, yes the wife is under the husband but under the wife is everybody else.

for the rape, of course no one will say that, of course even after no one will think "it could have been worse", it's a cold logical statement from me, an observer of the wild life. That's an awful thing to say, obviously too subjective, probably misplaced yet when I think of the worse things that could happen to me, death is worse than raped. But....yeah this one is probably my fault.

on the knight topic...what ? when I said the "knight/gentlemen wanna-be" I was talking about naive people like Bran at the beginning when he thinks of becoming a knight, the ideal knight, and this ideal defends the weak folks and women. In fact I don't really know how to explain it, simple people who dreams of being honorable like in the songs ?

Anyway all the things you say are true, all the things I say are true, you are listing the bad sides, I'm listing the good ones as asked by the person who created this topic. As I see it this topic was meant to look on the bright side of things, a nice idea and this discussion is ruining it so I will stop there.

Cool idea. Just one thing--Actually, I really thought you were playing the card of so 20% of women died in childbirth; I just got my arm cut off, so why are you bitching and moaning? I hoped you weren't since that would totally undercut your later argument about death and rape.

So it seems in Westeros, as a woman, you will most likely die to help perpuate the species; as a man, you will most likely die in some god awful war. Call me pragmatic, but dead is dead.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Boring and mundane works for me... if the choice is to play the game of thrones or raise pigs...I'll raise the damn pigs.

I, on the other hand, would have a go on the game of thrones if I had to choose. I'd rather be a lord somewhere far and kindda safe, though.

[LordBloodraven]

I can see the benefit of being a woman in ASOIAF. Not having a peen means you won't have some lunatic cutting it off to toss into a fire. Oh yes, wait. Also, you'd have the benefit of lemoncakes.

Biter loves to chew women's breasts. :ack: . Can't decide which one is worse.

[The Young Wolfs Champion]

As Cersei said a woman's most powerful weapon is the one between her legs, a woman can become one of the most powerful people in the world because of her husbands or sons position.

[Ravenhair]

Actually if you were a peasant it seems that, outside of a war situation, you're life is pretty boring and mundane. You didn't have money or lands so you're not married off for power, you actually get a bit of choice in who you marry (blacksmith, cobbler, baker, farmer etc.). Food would probably be touch and go and during 'winter' life would be rough unless you were beholden to a lord who put enough food away.

There is also a whole class of merchants that we don't see or hear but obviously have to exist. Myrish lace has to be made somewhere...

Boring and mundane works for me... if the choice is to play the game of thrones or raise pigs...I'll raise the damn pigs.

Most guilds didn't allow women; a few did, but they could not participate in the guild's social activities. Brewing and silk making were generally exclusively for women and, thus, you have stumbled upon the true power of women in Westeros--we control the m-----f-----beer. That is power!!!

[Ravenhair]

This thread reminds me of this old classic

George Carlin, really? He was good and all, but give me unSamKinison any day of the week. And I so don't mind being called a cum-catcher, just so long as you aren't offended by being called a cock-sucker.

[courser]

Most guilds didn't allow women; a few did, but they could not participate in the guild's social activities. Brewing and silk making were generally exclusively for women and, thus, you have stumbled upon the true power of women in Westeros--we control the m-----f-----beer. That is power!!!

That's interesting because my, granted very brief and shallow, research illustrates that women were free to partake of any guild activities... whether they were recognized as being 'masters' of their craft was up for arguement. Men were in fact limited to one craft whereas women could have more than one. There is evidence as we moved out of the middle ages that the limiting of women became greater...but through the greater part of the middle ages women could be active in various trades and guilds...it also differs across Europe. Chaucer's Wife of Bath is an example of this.

As you go down the social ladder it seems that equality between men and women in terms of labour and freedom becomes greater. Granted you're beholden to your lord who owns your lands but the division of labour is more equal (or so it appears).

[Sand Snake No. 9]

A beautiful Westerosi woman could go to Braavos (a good idea for anyone, imo) and become a courtesan. Braavosi courtesans have money and status, and if she has to be sold she might as well get the highest price and pocket the money herself. Downside is that courtesans probably have to have brains and talent as well as beauty, and that's asking for a lot.

An unattractive Westerosi woman could become a hedgewitch and learn that fortune-telling-with-blood trick. Then if some stuck-up psycho daughter of a great lord disturbs her nap she can tell the little pest how she's going to die and ruin her entire future. :devil:

A highborn girl married off to a lord with money and land can always look forward to being a widow. If her husband dies when the kids are young enough she gets to run the estate on the heir's behalf. Then when the heir is of age she can retire to the dower house, take a lover or two (if she hasn't already), and try to age dangerously, like the Queen of Thorns. :devil:

In fact, any Westerosi woman who can turn into the Queen of Thorns is doing damn well under the circumstances.

ETA: dang! and I haven't even been drinking.

[Ravenhair]

That's interesting because my, granted very brief and shallow, research illustrates that women were free to partake of any guild activities... whether they were recognized as being 'masters' of their craft was up for arguement. Men were in fact limited to one craft whereas women could have more than one. There is evidence as we moved out of the middle ages that the limiting of women became greater...but through the greater part of the middle ages women could be active in various trades and guilds...it also differs across Europe. Chaucer's Wife of Bath is an example of this.

As you go down the social ladder it seems that equality between men and women in terms of labour and freedom becomes greater. Granted you're beholden to your lord who owns your lands but the division of labour is more equal (or so it appears).

I could be wrong, but you are correct that there were definite divisions among the guilds, and men could belong to only one. Could women belong to more than one? I have no idea. The very, very (did I say very) limited research I've seen suggests that in the guilds to which women could belong, women were often the "assistants," who did much of the work (excluding the ones that were the sole province of women). There's also a lot boring shit about when a wife's husband is a member of a guild, what she can do, what happens when he dies. I am not sufficiently well-versed on the topic to know if equality between men and women became greater, the farther down the social ladder they were, but it makes sense.

All of this, though, begs the question--women control all the damn beer being made. I tell you that is the real fucking power--control of the beer.

[SerMixalot]

George Carlin, really? He was good and all, but give me unSamKinison any day of the week. And I so don't mind being called a cum-catcher, just so long as you aren't offended by being called a cock-sucker.

I didnt think anyone remembered dear old sam anymore

Im waiting for GRRM to introduce some good old homonecrophilia to westeros

[courser]

I could be wrong, but you are correct that there were definite divisions among the guilds, and men could belong to only one. Could women belong to more than one? I have no idea. The very, very (did I say very) limited research I've seen suggests that in the guilds to which women could belong, women were often the "assistants," who did much of the work (excluding the ones that were the sole province of women). There's also a lot boring shit about when a wife's husband is a member of a guild, what she can do, what happens when he dies. I am not sufficiently well-versed on the topic to know if equality between men and women became greater, the farther down the social ladder they were, but it makes sense.

All of this, though, begs the question--women control all the damn beer being made. I tell you that is the real fucking power--control of the beer.

And bees... so the mead production too... beer and mead...pretty much control all of that...so yup... real power!