How many swords can the north truly rise?

[Tanus Blackfyre]

When Robb called his bannerman he got an army of 18,000 nothmen, but i was wondering, was that all the power in ther north?, beacause other houses can rise ten of thousands like Lannisters, Tyrell , even dorne can rise 50,000 men to fight being the smallest of the seven kingdoms.

So how many men can the north rise to fight if needed be?

[HouseHarrison]

I imagine Robb mobilized more or less all he could get. My guess is the North at its very maximum could raise about 25,000 men. A dilemma of course if the Stormlands and Reach can both get up to 100,000 range.

[E-Ro]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64352-where-did-all-the-northmen-go/

Most think 40 to 50 thousand.

[Valyrian Spoon]

IIRC Prince Doran said that the fifty thousand spears was an over-estimate, although he was happy for others to believe he could raise that many men.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Around 30.000 I would say.

Although the population of Westeros is believed to be many millions.. I wonder why the armies are so small then.

[The Frosted King]

Some will come in and say 40-50,000 but i highly doubt it.

I'd wager they could raise at best, a host that tops out around 25k to 30k in the best of times.

And to me, thats being extremely elastic with the numbers.

Martin said this, martin said that, but we know what the books show us.

The lannisters had 35k in play from the beginning, and raised another host when necessary. Assuming a host is 10k, that puts them at 45k easy.

The tyrells had 70k in play in clash, and as of AFFC, Garlan could raise another 10k back home in the reach iirc.

The northmen never treated their campaign as if they had another host just waiting to be issued orders.

I'd say 30k is the top amount they could call and decently equip for battle.

[Lord Hound]

Only 30k? Why so small? Aren't there way more people in the North?

[E-Ro]

Some will come in and say 40-50,000 but i highly doubt it.

I'd wager they could raise at best, a host that tops out around 25k to 30k in the best of times.

And to me, thats being extremely elastic with the numbers.

Martin said this, martin said that, but we know what the books show us.

The lannisters had 35k in play from the beginning, and raised another host when necessary. Assuming a host is 10k, that puts them at 45k easy.

The tyrells had 70k in play in clash, and as of AFFC, Garlan could raise another 10k back home in the reach iirc.

The northmen never treated their campaign as if they had another host just waiting to be issued orders.

I'd say 30k is the top amount they could call and decently equip for battle.

We know many lords in the north held back men, some did not even contribute any, we know ser rodrick raised 2,000 in a few days,we know boltons basterd raised 600 quickly, we know the mountain clans gave 3,000 to stannis with a huge wildling threat close to their borders(meaning they held alot back) We know Manderly is one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms with a large fleet and many heavy horse, and we know ser rodrick said in clash that if king robb needs more men he will send for them meaning there are more troops to be had. Stannis would not be trying to raise the north if they could not help him. And regarding your lannister numbers, 45k is the max, the third army at oxcross was the remnants of jaimes host and the sweepings of the west, the lannister strength is now in the riverlands and dwindling fast, they cannot raise another host, the north can.

[Free Northman]

Fact: Ser Rodrik raised 2000 men in a few days around Winterfell to take back Torhenn Square from the Ironborn.

Fact: Stannis found 3000 men in no time among the Mountain Clans

Fact: The Umbers and Karstarks raised about 1000 additional men between them in Dance

Fact: The Boltons had at least 1,000 men left in the North, including Ramsay's crack garrison of 600 men.

Fact: Skagos sent no men with Robb. They inhabit an island the size of England which took the power of a combined North to subdue 100 years ago. They can raise at least as many men as the Mountain Clans. That would be 3000 men.

Fact: In addition to the Mountain Clans, Stannis has had 1000 more men join him from the Stony Shore and the Wolfswood, with more streaming in every day still.

Fact: Lady Dustin tells Theon in Dance that she purposefully sent as few men as possible with Robb, keeping the bulk of her levies back in Barrowton. Considering that the Barrowlands are in the far south and much warmer than the Karstark lands that have so far yielded 3000 men, and that Barrowton is the largest town in the North, the Dustins must be able to raise at least twice the men that the Karstarks can. And if they kept the bulk of these back, they must have at a minimum 4000 more men.

Fact: Lord Manderly rules the only city in the North - with about 50,000 inhabitants. He also rules the most populous and fertile lands in the North, with a dozen lords and a hundred landed knights under his rule. At a conservative estimate, these lands must be able to raise around 12,000 men. He sent only 1.500 men with Robb, being tasked by Robb to defend the North's eastern shore instead and to raise a navy for the North (of which he has built and crewed 50 ships so far. At 100 men per ship, that's 5000 more men).

Altogether, he currently has a minimum of 10,000 men under his command. Probably more.

The above are all very low estimates, and yet they add up to another 25,000 - 30,000 men at least. Add that to Robb's initial force and you get to more than 45,000.

This excludes Crannogmen, who didn't march with Robb, but were tasked to guard the Neck instead, and refugees streaming from the isolated hinterlands into places like White Harbor and Deepwood Motte to form up new armies.

The North can raise 50,000 men, that's a certainty.

The only thing is, they cannot sustain an army of more than 20,000 at any one time, due to the massive supply chain this would require. Therefore, I reckon the North has never in 8,000 years marched with an army larger than 20,000 when crossing the Neck. The distances and logistics simply make it impractical.

But if Robb had escaped back to the North after the Red Wedding, I reckon he could have raised a second army of 20,000 men within 6 months, if required to. It is just that this is the maximum number that can be marched off south as a single army, given the logistical and practical realities of the North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Only 30k? Why so small? Aren't there way more people in the North?

Not necessarily. As a landmass, the North is huge. But it's sparsely populated. However, I think some people are low-balling it.

ADWD shows that there are at least some pockets of sizable, thus-far untapped northern reserves — for example, the mountain clans, Manderly's forces and the men of Barrowton that Lady Dustin held back, and many people suspect a force of some size in the Neck, fighting the ironborn. Rodrik Cassel was also able to scrounge up 2,000 on short notice even after Robb had left, in Clash of Kings.

When you consider the geography (as someone said, it's impractical to march a large force south through the Neck), the haste with which Robb had to march (i.e. he didn't have time to assemble at full strength and left with what he had), and what we learn about reserves in ADWD, I'd put the North's full strength, including Robb's original 20,000, at probably 40K-50K.

Much is made about the number of people the Lannisters put up, but if I recall, they had everyone, including the field hands and guys who weren't really career soldiers. And the Reach is the most populous region, so it makes sense that they have the most soldiers.

[Free Northman]

Much is made about the number of people the Lannisters put up, but if I recall, they had everyone, including the field hands and guys who weren't really career soldiers. And the Reach is the most populous region, so it makes sense that they have the most soldiers.

Yes. I reckon the North and the Westerlands have a very similar population size. But in the Westerlands, you can gather 1000 men from an area with say a 20 mile radius, whereas in the North these same 1000 men need to be gathered over an area with maybe a 100 mile radius.

Hence, you're going to gather less men in the North, even though it has the same total number of men as the Westerlands. And once you've got your 20k men, you have to march and sustain them over a vast distance just to get to the Neck, and then still to march further south into enemy territory.

Also, Tywin is far richer and can maintain far larger supply chains than the Starks can. And furthermore, once the first army is destroyed, the above means that Tywin can gather a second army much faster, whereas Robb's second gathering would require a far wider recruiting effort over much larger distances, plus the added problem of marching the reserve army over thousands of miles of territory to just get to the front line again.

And this is without the added issue of Ironborn raiders having invaded your Kingdom and requiring you to fight a war on two fronts. Under these circumstances it is not surprising at all that the Westerlands were able to put 45,000 men in the field compared to Robb's 20,000, even though the North has the same total population as the Westerlands.

[Honor is a Horse]

The North is large but why work a farm in the North when it even snows in the summer. Sure there is lots of room but it makes sense that it isn't as densly populated at the lands in the south. The Reach is more equipped to feed a large amount of people especially in the winter therefore would be more people there and able to yield a bigger army. As a side note, the oxcross army was the remnant of Jaime's host and those who weren't were green, men yes, soldiers no. There is a big difference between someone holding a sword and a true soldier.

I like the number 40-50k for all the reasons Free Northman and Apple Martini stated

[E-Ro]

I agree, if the north is out of men the whole of westeros is screwed when the others come. And really people stannis would not be in the north if they had nothing to offer him, he knows the strength of each of the kingdoms.

[Free Northman]

I agree, if the north is out of men the whole of westeros is screwed when the others come. And really people stannis would not be in the north if they had nothing to offer him, he knows the strength of each of the kingdoms.

The Stannis point is a very good one. Stannis feels the North can give him a real powerbase. There is a reason for that. He knows the potential of every House in Westeros. But even he didn't know about the Mountain clans, and probably not about Skagos's strength either.

[Fightbringer]

when robb marched south its mentioned at the time he has to leave when he has 20,000 because theres no time to wait for more men to come in. Most houses can raise more men than the army they raise within a few weeks at the beginning of the war, the lannisters did so after whispering wood, and that 100,000 men or so men from the stormlands in the reach were raised because Renly took his time in moving north to KL, in order to gain as many men as possible. An additional 10,000-15,000 men or so at least must have been raised other than robbs army in the north, and i dont doubt there are others who could raise even more men, so 40,000 to 50,000 isnt an unreasonable estimate, its just getting them all together quick enough as the north is a big place and its a long way south to go

[Erkan12]

I think its not 18.000, totally 20.000

Maximum number will be ; 30.000-35.000

[Sevumar]

The Guardians of Order rulebook (which is not a fully-canon source, but was developed by a team working closely with Martin) claims that the full military might of the North, if given enough time to assemble, is 45,000 men, approx. 20% cavalry.

[Free Northman]

The Guardians of Order rulebook (which is not a fully-canon source, but was developed by a team working closely with Martin) claims that the full military might of the North, if given enough time to assemble, is 45,000 men, approx. 20% cavalry.

Ran would have to comment on the legitimacy of this rulebook, which I have no knowledge of.

But out of interest, what does this rulebook say about each of the other 6 regions, by comparison?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

What does this rulebook say about each of the other 6 regions, in comparison?

The Reach and the Westerlands can raise armies far more numerous than the Northern army at least..

[E-Ro]

Wait What? gurdians of order? what is that?