Is there any way that Daenerys can die?

[wtlloyd]

Dany is one of the main characters, but no one is THE main character. ALL of them have grown, and only at the ending of their stories will we know who we should have kept our eye on. She is probably the most successful at acting from her own moral viewpoint, however, so I don't get the dislike people have for her.

Lots of references to LOTR here, so think of the ending of Aragorns quest, he gets everything promised and it's pretty anti-climatic - "I overthrew the Dark Lord, and all I get is the Age of Man but all the magic leaves the world?"

Yet the hobbits journey back and the scouring of the shire takes place.

I doubt the books will end with Dany dying OR sitting the Iron Throne. She'll probably be haunted by the state of Essos, and consider it her true home and responsibility.

[tws1978]

But no one's really argued that she's unimportant to the story and going to die soon. Most of these posts have been expressing a grudging acceptance of the fact that despite the desire to get rid of her, they know she's staying in it for a good while longer. And the idea that she's turning villainous/ less sympathetic isn't really "out there" or ridiculous-- look at how many of us do not sympathize with her aims as they pertain to use of the dragons or conquering Westeros generally. Her arc from the fall of Meereen has not painted her in a favorable or sympathetic light- she looked "good" for restoring order to Westeros in aGoT, but that's not where her story's gone from there. Importantly, her DwD arc tells us that she, herself, does not want to rule. She wants to conquer Westeros, but does not like ruling, doesn't think of herself as a ruler, no longer wants to rule.

Those who seem to hold out hope for another evolution of Dany are putting faith in the idea that her dragons will make short order of the WW, that she will finally "save humanity." For one, I don't think the answer to the WW are 3 dragons. Secondly, I think Dany is going to be significantly more busy in her political campaign, especially since she'll probably be fighting against 1-2 of her dragons. I'm sure her arc will intersect what's going on with the Wall, but I don't think that she will emerge as the dragons blazing hero she seemed before the subsequent 4 books happened.

Except we have no proof GRRM ever intended her Meereen period to look villainous. And the last chapters can be explained both as her finally finding the resolve she needs to deal with her enemies and be the hero of the series, or getting completely delusional and on its way to becoming Aerys II.

Main problem of the last two books is they realy don´t count. They were never part of the original ark and whatever happens in them is just expanding (someone could say dragging) necesseraly transition and repositioning the characters which was supposed to happen between books and explained in just a bunch of flashbacks. Some of it is still masterfull writing, some of it less but it will have very little (if any) impact on the series as whole. GRRM is just inserting more and more chapters and twists in the middle section of the story but because the start and end are already given (hopefully, because changing it this late in the series and with so many dreams and premonitions would just turn it into another LOST ending) nothing of these middle stories can impact the main characters enough to change the final.

Going back to Dany, her Meereen adventure is just a result of GRRM needing to keep Dany with no progress for another two books and readers complaining her grow from beggar to conquerer in third book was too easy and unrealistical. Add some inspiriation with the actual political situation and Dany went from conquering city per chapter to being completely blindsided with a bunch of terrorist. But never when reading the ADWD I have felt GRRM wants us too see Dany as negative. Just contrary, again and again he goes out of his way to describe all her oponent and slaver characters as completely repulsive. So I´m not sure why something what´s never been intended as important (and were very likely represented by just "Dany spends some time as queen of Meereen while the dragons grow up" in his original outline) should drastically change his longterm vision for the character.

[Dr. Pepper]

Except we have no proof GRRM ever intended her Meereen period to look villainous.

If he didn't intend for her to appear villainous, then he probably wouldn't have had her do the things she does. I can understand one small mishap with his writing, but ten chapters....that makes it pretty plain that it was intentional.

[butterbumps!]

Except we have no proof GRRM ever intended her Meereen period to look villainous. And the last chapters can be explained both as her finally finding the resolve she needs to deal with her enemies and be the hero of the series, or getting completely delusional and on its way to becoming Aerys II.

Main problem of the last two books is they realy don´t count. They were never part of the original ark and whatever happens in them is just expanding (someone could say dragging) necesseraly transition and repositioning the characters which was supposed to happen between books and explained in just a bunch of flashbacks. Some of it is still masterfull writing, some of it less but it will have very little (if any) impact on the series as whole. GRRM is just inserting more and more chapters and twists in the middle section of the story but because the start and end are already given (hopefully, because changing it this late in the series and with so many dreams and premonitions would just turn it into another LOST ending) nothing of these middle stories can impact the main characters enough to change the final.

Going back to Dany, her Meereen adventure is just a result of GRRM needing to keep Dany with no progress for another two books and readers complaining her grow from beggar to conquerer in third book was too easy and unrealistical. Add some inspiriation with the actual political situation and Dany went from conquering city per chapter to being completely blindsided with a bunch of terrorist. But never when reading the ADWD I have felt GRRM wants us too see Dany as negative. Just contrary, again and again he goes out of his way to describe all her oponent and slaver characters as completely repulsive. So I´m not sure why something what´s never been intended as important (and were very likely represented by just "Dany spends some time as queen of Meereen while the dragons grow up" in his original outline) should drastically change his longterm vision for the character.

The last 2 books don't count? Are you really arguing that? And that they don't have an impact on the overall series? If this is what you truly believe, then I don't even know how to begin explaining how they do.

If Martin did not intend for us to question Dany then he would have written the second half of SoS and all of DwD differently. There was no law that she had to stay in Meereen or do what she did in Slaver's Bay. She certainly did not have to be painted as incompetently as she is here. Martin did not have to depict her condoning torture, not training her dragons, being impossible to reason with. My point is that there were a lot of authorial choices made in these "filler chapters" as you call them that point to a good deal of negatives in her character. If he wanted Dany to remain a clear hero then he would have portrayed her time in these books much differently.

If you don't see DwD as portraying Dany in a negative light, you may want to do a reread. I don't mean that condescendingly, but to encourage you to look closely at the choices Martin makes in this part of her arc. We see the slavers as irredeemably repulsive because this is the way Dany sees them. So right there, many of us take issue with her highly "imperialist" gaze that is filled with contempt for all aspects of this foreign culture. On a second note, DwD gives us a thorough look into ruling, something that Dany is quite terrible at, even by her own admission. Now, this is more than just filler. It shows us that conquering is much different than ruling, and given how she fares, it does make many of us not want her anywhere near a position of power in Westeros. I'd say it does matter.

If Martin wanted to, he could have had her return to Vaes Tolorro with refugee slaves at her back, grown the dragons, and shown Dany as a more competent leader. Instead, her failures in DwD resolve her to give into her anger and violent streak (something that's been there since aGoT, mind you) and resolves to go forth with fire and blood to collect a crown that many of us do not want to see her take. And it's not just her failures in Slaver's Bay that prompt this. Many of us see the Targ's loss of power as entirely deserved and justified, which undermines more of our sympathies to her cause.

Perhaps more to the point, what precisely do you think she can offer Westeros in a way that might make her heroic? Fire and Blood, and to be beaten down for the sake of Dany getting her vengeance for Westeros' very understandable deposing of her father? Or you think she's really a super competent leader, even though she herself doesn't want to rule, and also she knows nothing about Westeros and doesn't want to be taught? I could see her being beneficial to the extent that when an Ironborn steals a dragon and starts using it for his own conquest that Dany can challenge it with another dragon. But given the fact that there are wargs in Westeros and dragon horns, I don't believe that she, personally, is as imperative to dragons as one might think.

In the end, she could turn out to be a good guy in some capacity, but that doesn't negate the very deliberate choices that were made to paint her on a downward spiral in the last 1.5 books.

[RedBean]

I think she'll die in the end, but only after she saves the world. I don't exactly like her entitled attitude, and I find her chapters in Essos to be somewhat boring overall, but I think she's starting to get her act together. I do hope someone will tell her the truth about her father, though. Really, it's kind of silly of Barristan to not have told her everything she needs to know of her family. But then Barristan is a little naive in his own way. He tells Dany that when she returns to Westeros, everyone will be happy, and shout "Prince Rhaegar's sister has come at last!!". But I think that's hardly likely considering the circumstances. There's enough of a power struggle in Westeros without adding Dany to the mix. Viserys told Dany that she'll have the support of the Martells, and the Tyrells, and other "loyal" houses. But the Martells aren't going to be happy about Quentyn's death (though I don't blame Dany for it; the kid played with dragons and got burnt). The Tyrells want themselves to rule the Iron Throne. And most of the other houses are impoverished or broken or just trying to get by in the war.

[efoula]

Dany kas such a silly, arrogant attitude and her story is so boring that I would love Martin even more if he just left her in Essos not to be heard of again. The dragons can follow someone else (Tyrion maybe?) and get to Westeros.

If I have to put up with her for two more books, at least I deserve to see her die burning!!!

[Aemrys]

I never saw Dany sitting the Iron Throne at the end of the series, alas she'll have to die. Her dragons with her. I see the Seven Kingdoms becoming seven kingdoms again, a more modern society without a distant alien ruler that came, saw and conquered. Westeros has had enough of Targaryens coming in like bosses and ruling with fear via nuclear warheads. Dany will die. Her dragons will die. The Iron Throne will be destroyed.

[gougef]

I never saw Dany sitting the Iron Throne at the end of the series, alas she'll have to die. Her dragons with her. I see the Seven Kingdoms becoming seven kingdoms again, a more modern society without a distant alien ruler that came, saw and conquered. Westeros has had enough of Targaryens coming in like bosses and ruling with fear via nuclear warheads. Dany will die. Her dragons will die. The Iron Throne will be destroyed.

^^^^^^^^ X 1000.

[tws1978]

The last 2 books don't count? Are you really arguing that? And that they don't have an impact on the overall series? If this is what you truly believe, then I don't even know how to begin explaining how they do.

If Martin did not intend for us to question Dany then he would have written the second half of SoS and all of DwD differently. There was no law that she had to stay in Meereen or do what she did in Slaver's Bay. She certainly did not have to be painted as incompetently as she is here. Martin did not have to depict her condoning torture, not training her dragons, being impossible to reason with. My point is that there were a lot of authorial choices made in these "filler chapters" as you call them that point to a good deal of negatives in her character. If he wanted Dany to remain a clear hero then he would have portrayed her time in these books much differently.

If you don't see DwD as portraying Dany in a negative light, you may want to do a reread. I don't mean that condescendingly, but to encourage you to look closely at the choices Martin makes in this part of her arc. We see the slavers as irredeemably repulsive because this is the way Dany sees them. So right there, many of us take issue with her highly "imperialist" gaze that is filled with contempt for all aspects of this foreign culture. On a second note, DwD gives us a thorough look into ruling, something that Dany is quite terrible at, even by her own admission. Now, this is more than just filler. It shows us that conquering is much different than ruling, and given how she fares, it does make many of us not want her anywhere near a position of power in Westeros. I'd say it does matter.

If Martin wanted to, he could have had her return to Vaes Tolorro with refugee slaves at her back, grown the dragons, and shown Dany as a more competent leader. Instead, her failures in DwD resolve her to give into her anger and violent streak (something that's been there since aGoT, mind you) and resolves to go forth with fire and blood to collect a crown that many of us do not want to see her take. And it's not just her failures in Slaver's Bay that prompt this. Many of us see the Targ's loss of power as entirely deserved and justified, which undermines more of our sympathies to her cause.

Perhaps more to the point, what precisely do you think she can offer Westeros in a way that might make her heroic? Fire and Blood, and to be beaten down for the sake of Dany getting her vengeance for Westeros' very understandable deposing of her father? Or you think she's really a super competent leader, even though she herself doesn't want to rule, and also she knows nothing about Westeros and doesn't want to be taught? I could see her being beneficial to the extent that when an Ironborn steals a dragon and starts using it for his own conquest that Dany can challenge it with another dragon. But given the fact that there are wargs in Westeros and dragon horns, I don't believe that she, personally, is as imperative to dragons as one might think.

In the end, she could turn out to be a good guy in some capacity, but that doesn't negate the very deliberate choices that were made to paint her on a downward spiral in the last 1.5 books.

We will obviously never agree what GRRM intended with the Meereen hell but I honestly think you and some people here are going out of your way to see something evil in Dany in these chapters which simply isn´t there. Which is really another problem GRRM will have to deal with, because the series is out for so long and the speculation got so wild it´s very likely even his fairly twisty and original outcome written 15 or so years ago will end as disappointing. We are at a point where Jon paternity is still supposed to be one of the biggest reveal of the series but most of fans already accept it as given and even predictable outcome.

As for what GRRM should or could do with Dany. Assuming he already has pretty detailed outline of the main ark of the series he cannot have the character deviated too much because it would mess with his entire plan. So, she is stuck. She can´t get into Westeros because certain things need to happen there first, but she cannot embark on some big quest in East either because she would deviate too much from where he needs her, both geographically and emotionally, when the original storyline picks up again.

Honestly, I can very much see the original after 5 year jump book 4 starting just with Dany and Drogon completely lost in middle of nowhere and basically back in a square 1 so all readers are left wondering what the hell happened between now and the last time we saw her. And then we would discover her reign ended bad, she had to run and left her two dragons behind. That´s essentially all we need to know to start book 6. Books 4 and 5 are like the period between two episodes of Star Wars. Sure, it´s nice to know what happened in such a detail but it could be easily summed by just a few paragraphs (or the credit roll at beginning) and nothing would change. That´s why I don´t believe whatever Dany did or didn´t in Meereen will have any effect. You don´t end one movie with Anakin still good and in love with Padmé and return in the next when he is already Dark Vader and Padmé dead. And that´s exactly what would happened if your theory about Dany as villain is true and GRRM did the 5 year jump.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

This has to be the fifteenth thread on this subject.

I've no issue with someone disliking Daenerys or her entire storyline but I grow weary of readers with their tired delusions of trying to make her seem less important than she is or transforming her into something she is not or hoping that she will perish soon.

Look, factually speaking, she is one of the three main characters of the books and her storyline will continue to assume very prominent placing going into the future and up until the ending stages of the series; accept that and move on.

Feel free to criticize her all the while but at least come to grips with the perimeters of reality in doing so.

I agree.

[butterbumps!]

We will obviously never agree what GRRM intended with the Meereen hell but I honestly think you and some people here are going out of your way to see something evil in Dany in these chapters which simply isn´t there. Which is really another problem GRRM will have to deal with, because the series is out for so long and the speculation got so wild it´s very likely even his fairly twisty and original outcome written 15 or so years ago will end as disappointing. We are at a point where Jon paternity is still supposed to be one of the biggest reveal of the series but most of fans already accept it as given and even predictable outcome.

But this isn't crackpotting or any kind of theory. I was neutral on Dany until shortly after "Dracarys." This isn't a conspiracy whereby some of us decided we did not like Dany and are looking for things to turn her into a villain. My neutrality turned to no longer sympathizing and considering the possibility that she is becoming villainous precisely because of what is written, not the other way around. I don't think she's the great Other, but neither do I think that she is a clear hero, or easily sympathized with at this point. Jaime, Theon and Sandor have undergone serious evolutions that have for the most part made them more sympathetic to us; in the case of Dany, I simply think that it is the reverse, because from the beginning she was set up to look heroic, and her dragons the easy and obvious solution to the WW. If you want to count FFC and DwD as irrelevant to the story, be my guest. If you think that DwD does not grey her out, then I think you're wrong but entitled to your opinion.

As for what GRRM should or could do with Dany. Assuming he already has pretty detailed outline of the main ark of the series he cannot have the character deviated too much because it would mess with his entire plan. So, she is stuck. She can´t get into Westeros because certain things need to happen there first, but she cannot embark on some big quest in East either because she would deviate too much from where he needs her, both geographically and emotionally, when the original storyline picks up again.

Look, the series is a "Song of Ice and Fire." We've learned a lot about the Targs, the dangers of dragons, and the problems of conquest in these 5 books. All indications point toward the need for balance. At the beginning it is set up that the bad WW will be vanquished by glorious Dany and her dragons. The next 4 books start to throw this idea on its head. You're arguing about "the original plan" which seems like you're saying that everything that's set up in aGoT is exactly whats supposed to happen- Dany takes her "rightful throne" and dragons will save the world. I think that this is mistaken. I do not believe that this is Martin's original "outline" for what's supposed to go down. Very quickly the idea of Dany as a savior begins to crumble, and when you go back and reread aGoT, the reasons for this crumbling are planted even there.

Honestly, I can very much see the original after 5 year jump book 4 starting just with Dany and Drogon completely lost in middle of nowhere and basically back in a square 1 so all readers are left wondering what the hell happened between now and the last time we saw her. And then we would discover her reign ended bad, she had to run and left her two dragons behind. That´s essentially all we need to know to start book 6. Books 4 and 5 are like the period between two episodes of Star Wars. Sure, it´s nice to know what happened in such a detail but it could be easily summed by just a few paragraphs (or the credit roll at beginning) and nothing would change. That´s why I don´t believe whatever Dany did or didn´t in Meereen will have any effect. You don´t end one movie with Anakin still good and in love with Padmé and return in the next when he is already Dark Vader and Padmé dead. And that´s exactly what would happened if your theory about Dany as villain is true and GRRM did the 5 year jump.

Why do you keep talking of "original plans"? How do you know what Martin's orginal plans for anyone is?? Seriously, I like Stannis and so does Martin, so can I say that Martin planned for him to be a good guy all along and, by the way, his less savory character in aCoK isn't "part of the original plan" so let's pretend it doesn't exist?

Whether what Dany did or didn't do in Meereen does effect the entire story, and enriches several of the overarching themes of the story, including, but not limited to magic as a double edged sword, birthright, vengeance, conquering vs. governance, and slavery. I could go one about this, but here 4 big points that Meereen adds to the story on both textual and meta-levels:

1. The reader is more conflicted about whether we want to see Dany take the Throne.

2. Dragons are not forces of pure good.

3. Dany undergoes serious identity crises and begins to fully embrace "the monster within" (this is her words, not mine).

4. Dany becomes more honest with herself, and we as readers see that it is not the Iron Throne she wants- she just wants to belong somewhere- to have a home.

I think that Dany could end up being a "good" character in the end, but it will not be as a Westerosi savior or queen, and not before "passing under the shadow" so to speak. I haven't argued that she will be the main villain, but that her presence has an increasingly villainous tinge because she is not a good ruler but wants to conquer for reasons of personal vengeance.

All parts of her arc are important- she rises, she falls and in the process is struggling with her identity and true calling. By reading through the more atmospheric DwD, we learn that ruling Westeros is not going to make her happy, that she is having trouble connecting to her people, to her dragons and to herself especially. I think that you are doing this character that you seem to love a huge injustice by negating the less palatable aspects of her journey.

[Dacie]

Honestly, I can very much see the original after 5 year jump book 4 starting just with Dany and Drogon completely lost in middle of nowhere and basically back in a square 1 so all readers are left wondering what the hell happened between now and the last time we saw her. And then we would discover her reign ended bad, she had to run and left her two dragons behind. That´s essentially all we need to know to start book 6. Books 4 and 5 are like the period between two episodes of Star Wars. Sure, it´s nice to know what happened in such a detail but it could be easily summed by just a few paragraphs (or the credit roll at beginning) and nothing would change. That´s why I don´t believe whatever Dany did or didn´t in Meereen will have any effect. You don´t end one movie with Anakin still good and in love with Padmé and return in the next when he is already Dark Vader and Padmé dead. And that´s exactly what would happened if your theory about Dany as villain is true and GRRM did the 5 year jump.

But by this logic, we could argue that nothing that happens in AFfC or ADwD has any bearing on the main plot of the story. That would eliminate Jon's time as Lord Commander, allowing the Wildlings through the Wall and forming an alliance with them, Jon's stabbing, Stannis' campaign to re-take the North, Manderly and the other loyalists plotting against the Boltons and Freys, Bran's tutelage under Bloodraven, Arya at the House of Black and White, Sansa in the Vale with Littlefinger, Cersei's descent into madness, Doran's plot for Dorne, the introduction of fAegon, and on and on and on.

I'm not trying to sound condescending at all, but I think you might enjoy a re-read. A group of us have been going over Jon's and Dany's ADwD chapters and comparing and contrasting their journeys, including their leadership styles, challenges, and struggles.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This. For fuck's sake, a thousand times this.

But it's perfectly wise and reasonable to suggest that GRRM should kill off Jon, right? Why would it be awesome and subversive and cool for GRRM to kill Jon — something you created an entire thread about, but Dany should be off-limits and only an idiot would think she could be killed off?

Or from death of too many brain cells by reading these forums. I'm surprised I'm still alive myself ...

Then leave? And please explain how this isn't a personal insult to the people who post here.

[Faint]

But it's perfectly wise and reasonable to suggest that GRRM should kill off Jon, right?

No way. Jon is as immortal as Daenerys until the latter stages of the final book. Not to mention, he has just about as much plot setup as Daenerys does. Removing him from the series now would wreck at least half a dozen ongoing storylines.

Needless to say, I agree with the reviewers who were rather disparaging about the cliffhanger he was left with given that nobody could reasonably believe he is dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The thing with Dany is that it's just so glaringly obvious she's destined for the Iron Throne.

This is exactly why she'll never, ever, ever get it and keep it.

No way. Jon is as immortal as Daenerys until the latter stages of the final book. Not to mention, he has just about as much plot setup as Daenerys does. Removing him from the series now would wreck at least half a dozen ongoing storylines.

I was pointing out that specific poster's double standard for expressing that it would be a good narrative choice to kill off Jon, while saying, in so many words, that people wanting or thinking that Dany will die soon are morons.

[Maheshfunky]

I think Daenerys is pivotal to destroying the winter walkers, I can see her Aegon and Jon riding on dragons in the brink of the winter walker lands and sacrificing themselves to end the WWs.

[Faint]

Point blank, and people have to come to grips with this: Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, and Bran cannot die until the last book. That's just a fact. What's more, if you've read some of the comments attributed to the author, you'd see that's the case.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Point blank, and people have to come to grips with this: Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, and Bran cannot die until the last book.

And like Butterbumps has already tried to tell you, the vast majority of people in this thread, even those who despise Stormbrat, accept that. So what are you arguing about?

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

she cant die by fire, i hope she gets trapped in the wall like that one wildling did, and they seal it up behind her and she FREEZES to death. ironic.

[Michael Snow]

Honestly, be it Dany or Jon Snow, I won't put any death past Martin at this point. This is my first time waiting for one of these books, given that I read all the books one after another and after they'd all been released after the first season of the show. But after all the times he left my jaw on the floor with the death of a beloved principal character, I feel like I'd be remiss in believing anyone's survival is a certainty. I'm not convinced that Jon is even going to survive the DWD attack - I think it's possible he may play out the series in Ghost.