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R+L=J v.30


Xray the Enforcer

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Elia may have grudgingly agreed to a second wife for a very practical reason - keeping Viserys off the Iron Throne.

Well, first of all, Rhaegar getting a second wife would only INCREASE the chances of something happening to Aegon.

Second, Rhaegar at that point had refused to make any direct moves not against the boy that might be crazy and might wear a crown, but rather against his father, that WAS crazy and WAS king. She'd perfectly fine with him running off with another woman to make a child while she and her children remained in King's Landing with his increasingly mad father and Rhaegar does nothing about it? Nah, don't buy it.

Third, he could always marry a low (or at least lower) station girl, or have a few bastard sons legitimized- marry the daughter of a house that is actually more powerful than the Martells, and is much more well connected (to Baratheon, Tully and Arryn) would be political suicide.

Fourth, Rhaegar promising that her child would be ahead in the line of succession means nothing- after all, he could very well be dead when the second son and/or the people that backed him up made their move.

And if Daemon Blackfyre, a legitimized bastard born out of a King's cousin, could raise nearly half the realm for him just because he had a sword and apparently his father liked him best, imagine what the legitimate grandson/nephew of a lord of Winterfell, who's close to the leaders of house Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, and is son of the woman the whole world knew Rhaegar loved best, can do.

In real history, there was a Courtier in the English Court who kidnapped one of the Queens Ladies in Waiting, forcing her to become his mistress, and then later his wife.

He himself was married to the Kings cousin, and it outraged the family, and of course the Court.

In that case, the King allowed the divorce of his cousin, and of course, the second marriage saved the virtue of the woman he kidnapped.

Well, that's one case, involving a courier and a lady in waiting- very different from someone kidnapping the daughter of a Lord Paramount, who's bethroted to another.

There is no scenario for Rhaegar that doesn't end with civil war or one out of Robert, Oberyn or Brandon challenging him to a duel. And that doesn't have anything do with love (or only love), but rather for political reasons, specially in Robert's case: a young lord, one already not known for being serious, that just accepts his bethroted to be kidnapped and deflowered by another man will be seen as weak and a coward, and his subjects more likely to try a move against him or open rebellion.

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And if Daemon Blackfyre, a legitimized bastard born out of a King's cousin, could raise nearly half the realm for him just because he had a sword and apparently his father liked him best, imagine what the legitimate grandson/nephew of a lord of Winterfell, who's close to the leaders of house Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, and is son of the woman the whole world knew Rhaegar loved best, can do.

You're getting the story completely wrong. Daemon Blackfyre's claim wasn't just based on a sword, it was also based on rumors that his trueborn brother Daeron wasn't trueborn at all, but was in fact the bastard son of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. So even Daemon had to base his claim on the lawful rules of succession.

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Did Ned think that Lyanna was raped?

No, that's the point. If he did think she was raped, then it would be supremely odd for his only thought about Rhaegar in the entire book to be an assumption that he didn't visit brothels. It is therefore a reasonable inference that Ned doesn't think Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

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Did Ned think that Lyanna was raped?

I don't think so. His thoughts toward Rhaegar are fairly neutral and slightly positive (by thinking he is not the type of man to frequent brothels). I don't think you would feel neutral/slightly positive about your sister's rapist.

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No, that's the point. If he did think she was raped, then it would be supremely odd for his only thought about Rhaegar in the entire book to be an assumption that he didn't visit brothels. It is therefore a reasonable inference that Ned doesn't think Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

Ok, ok, I guess it's time for some coffee

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I think Lyanna and Rhaegars LOVE could have been consensual, and past the stumbling blocks, any physical relationship certainly consensual, however, there are a hell of a lot of stumbling blocks, which Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, not raping, takes care of.

As I said, Rhaegar takes the hit to his honor that an adoring population would later forgive him for, especially if it produces the sons Kevan Lannister said Rhaegar wanted.

As far as Robert goes, even there may be a grain of truth in what he believed, and though much of the fandom has turned him into something that life and bitternes already had, I wouldn't count his word out since I've heard that Martin has said that Robert wasn't such a bad guy.

There may be more revelations there, and favorable to Roberts defense, though by and large he seems a jerk.

Ned commenting that Lyanna had the wolfs blood and it led her to an early grave may also mean that because she didn't comply with her place in society, shook it up and stepped out, is what got her in trouble.

If she'd stayed int the stands, giving her favor to Robert like a good little girl, can anyone doubt she'd still be alive?

Arya seems to be on the same path, not wanting to be a great Lady, or giving birth to Knights because that stupid stuff is for other girls- but Ned does allow her to keep Needle, and gives her lessons.

Nothing like being fully and properly prepared to defend yourself, rather than halfway.

Maybe if Lyanna had been permitted to carry a sword and have lessons, she could defend herself better?

Ned is an enigma, so his thinking, or not thinking of anything doesn't guarentee any absolutes.

The Blue roses, or crown.

I'm sorry, but I have hard time believing that they would have meticulously packed away, preserved and made the trip in her bags to the Tower unless it was Rhaegar himself who kept them after Brandon most likely reached over Neds shoulder where he was feeling the thorns underneath, (uh, not a good metaphor for good times), and threw them to ground, while jerking Lyanna out of the stands.

More than likely, Rhaegar was picking her fresh flowers everyday and bringing them to her, and the peddles were what fell from her hand.

(Or, maybe it's just me, and I'm a disaster with preserving flowers).

Well, first of all, Rhaegar getting a second wife would only INCREASE the chances of something happening to Aegon.

Second, Rhaegar at that point had refused to make any direct moves not against the boy that might be crazy and might wear a crown, but rather against his father, that WAS crazy and WAS king. She'd perfectly fine with him running off with another woman to make a child while she and her children remained in King's Landing with his increasingly mad father and Rhaegar does nothing about it? Nah, don't buy it.

Third, he could always marry a low (or at least lower) station girl, or have a few bastard sons legitimized- marry the daughter of a house that is actually more powerful than the Martells, and is much more well connected (to Baratheon, Tully and Arryn) would be political suicide.

Fourth, Rhaegar promising that her child would be ahead in the line of succession means nothing- after all, he could very well be dead when the second son and/or the people that backed him up made their move.

And if Daemon Blackfyre, a legitimized bastard born out of a King's cousin, could raise nearly half the realm for him just because he had a sword and apparently his father liked him best, imagine what the legitimate grandson/nephew of a lord of Winterfell, who's close to the leaders of house Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, and is son of the woman the whole world knew Rhaegar loved best, can do.

Well, that's one case, involving a courier and a lady in waiting- very different from someone kidnapping the daughter of a Lord Paramount, who's bethroted to another.

There is no scenario for Rhaegar that doesn't end with civil war or one out of Robert, Oberyn or Brandon challenging him to a duel. And that doesn't have anything do with love (or only love), but rather for political reasons, specially in Robert's case: a young lord, one already not known for being serious, that just accepts his bethroted to be kidnapped and deflowered by another man will be seen as weak and a coward, and his subjects more likely to try a move against him or open rebellion.

He was a high ranking Lord, and had been a favorite of the Kings, with some hints that the two of them had had relationship at one time, and he was also married to the Kings cousin, so these things did happen as a matter of strategy.

As I said in another thread, I imagine Martin is drawing upon some historical template.

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As far as Robert goes, even there may be a grain of truth in what he believed, and though much of the fandom has turned him into something that life and bitternes already had, I wouldn't count his word out since I've heard that Martin has said that Robert wasn't such a bad guy.

We don't discount his opinion because we think he's a bad guy, we discount it because he has pretty much the most biased perspective when it comes to Targaryens, and has every interest in believing that they were unabashedly the bad guys in the war.

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We don't discount his opinion because we think he's a bad guy, we discount it because he has pretty much the most biased perspective when it comes to Targaryens, and has every interest in believing that they were unabashedly the bad guys in the war.

But yet he seems to forget he has Targaryen blood himself, cousin to the King, and seemingly had a congenial relationship with the Crown, even offering to find the KotLT himself.

His Father was commissioned to find Rhaegar a Bride.

He does pick and choose what he wants to believe.

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He does pick and choose what he wants to believe.

Well, yeah, that's exactly my point. He doesn't believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna because he has firsthand knowledge, he believes it because he wants to believe it. It's the only thing keeping him together.

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Well, first of all, Rhaegar getting a second wife would only INCREASE the chances of something happening to Aegon.

Second, Rhaegar at that point had refused to make any direct moves not against the boy that might be crazy and might wear a crown, but rather against his father, that WAS crazy and WAS king. She'd perfectly fine with him running off with another woman to make a child while she and her children remained in King's Landing with his increasingly mad father and Rhaegar does nothing about it? Nah, don't buy it.

Third, he could always marry a low (or at least lower) station girl, or have a few bastard sons legitimized- marry the daughter of a house that is actually more powerful than the Martells, and is much more well connected (to Baratheon, Tully and Arryn) would be political suicide.

Fourth, Rhaegar promising that her child would be ahead in the line of succession means nothing- after all, he could very well be dead when the second son and/or the people that backed him up made their move.

And if Daemon Blackfyre, a legitimized bastard born out of a King's cousin, could raise nearly half the realm for him just because he had a sword and apparently his father liked him best, imagine what the legitimate grandson/nephew of a lord of Winterfell, who's close to the leaders of house Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, and is son of the woman the whole world knew Rhaegar loved best, can do.

I tend to think that if Elia agreed (and yes, I admit that it's a very big IF) that she agreed to the idea - NOT to what Rhaegar actually did. Elia was a princess born as well as a princess by marriage, she had to know that a delicate touch was needed for the situation and may have incorrectly assumed that Rhaegar was going to be smart about it. He wasn't and I imagine that she sat in KL for those months roundly cursing her idiot of a husband.

You have some really good points, but I think we can argue both ways - if something did happen to Aegon, who is the first suspect? Killing the heir isn't a smart or easy thing to do, and as far as I remember, we've seen only one instance of this (possibly) happening the Targ dynasty. A lower-born woman would be less of a threat - but she might also be an insult. If you're going to replace the princess of Dorne, you might want an equally ranked lady, or else you risk offending the touchy Dornish pride. Another issue like Daemon Blackfyre is always a concern, but IMHO, part of the problem was how Aegon IV handled things - he all but invited a rebellion. If Rhaegar had played it smart, he could have unified the Great Houses together with this marriage.

One final thought - we (the fans) see things in hindsight - of course Rhaegar's actions were going to cause trouble, it's obvious. From Rhaegar's POV (and possibly from Elia's) the Targaryen dynasty had ruled for almost 300 years, they had conquered 6 of the 7 kingdoms (and eventually got Dorne as well) and despite war, plague and rebellion had kept the Iron Throne. I honestly think is simply never occurred to many of the power players that things could go so bad so fast.

In the end of course, all of this is just guesswork and we might all be wrong. And I will admit, I am slightly biased towards Elia at least being asked her opinion, simply because I really dislike the fandom view of her as this poor, pathetic woman who everyone walked all over.

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You're getting the story completely wrong. Daemon Blackfyre's claim wasn't just based on a sword, it was also based on rumors that his trueborn brother Daeron wasn't trueborn at all, but was in fact the bastard son of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. So even Daemon had to base his claim on the lawful rules of succession.

Nah, unlike with Stannis, most people didn't really believed his story- Daemon's claim was based mostly on him being handsome, charismatic and badass, pretty much like Renly (who didn't had the badass part).

Surely someone could have invented a story about Elia and, say, Arthur Dayne if it was necessary.

I tend to think that if Elia agreed (and yes, I admit that it's a very big IF) that she agreed to the idea - NOT to what Rhaegar actually did. Elia was a princess born as well as a princess by marriage, she had to know that a delicate touch was needed for the situation and may have incorrectly assumed that Rhaegar was going to be smart about it. He wasn't and I imagine that she sat in KL for those months roundly cursing her idiot of a husband.

You have some really good points, but I think we can argue both ways - if something did happen to Aegon, who is the first suspect? Killing the heir isn't a smart or easy thing to do, and as far as I remember, we've seen only one instance of this (possibly) happening the Targ dynasty. A lower-born woman would be less of a threat - but she might also be an insult. If you're going to replace the princess of Dorne, you might want an equally ranked lady, or else you risk offending the touchy Dornish pride. Another issue like Daemon Blackfyre is always a concern, but IMHO, part of the problem was how Aegon IV handled things - he all but invited a rebellion. If Rhaegar had played it smart, he could have unified the Great Houses together with this marriage.

One final thought - we (the fans) see things in hindsight - of course Rhaegar's actions were going to cause trouble, it's obvious. From Rhaegar's POV (and possibly from Elia's) the Targaryen dynasty had ruled for almost 300 years, they had conquered 6 of the 7 kingdoms (and eventually got Dorne as well) and despite war, plague and rebellion had kept the Iron Throne. I honestly think is simply never occurred to many of the power players that things could go so bad so fast.

In the end of course, all of this is just guesswork and we might all be wrong. And I will admit, I am slightly biased towards Elia at least being asked her opinion, simply because I really dislike the fandom view of her as this poor, pathetic woman who everyone walked all over.

This isn't a matter of hindsight- Rhaegar is offending 3 separate families of Lord Paramounts- Martell, Baratheon and Stark- the last two deeply connected with each other and with two other families of LPs as well, at the same time his father alienated another Lord Paramount, Tywin. And of course, each of the 3 offended families has one member known as a very temperamental and very talented fighter.

Even back in Harrenhal, when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, all the smiles died- people knew it wouldn't end well.

If Rhaegar didn't see how alienate 3 families of Lord Paramounts at the same time his father lost the alliance with another, and Aerys himself is going increasingly unstable, could cause a war, simply because the Targaryens have been around for 280 years, then he's either arrogant and stupid, or.. he was going mad himself- which is what I believe to be the case.

And IMO, your view of "Elia was all right with it" just makes her look much weaker, submissive and plain stupid to risk everything she had for nothing, than if Rhaegar simply ignored everything because of his obsession with Lyanna and prophecies.

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I believe that Martin’s biggest deception was to narrate the story in third person and by view point characters. This way he can “take many things back”. I mean most knowledge we have, especially of past events, is tainted be false memory or/and personal emotions and beliefs. Of course we can’t have Lyanna’s, Elia’s and Rhaegar’s POV. I strongly believe that the safest “facts” can be derived when people talk about themselves and not third persons and by the deeds they commit.

So let’s examine who Elia was. She was Dornish, and Dornishmen are hot-tempered, proud and ambitious. Theirs was the only kingdom that was not conquered and still call themselves Prince and Princess with everyone’s tolerance. So Elia was Princess Elia Martell before becoming Princess Elia wife of Rhaegar. She had two legitimate heirs to the throne. Even if something happened to Aegon there was Rhaenys. Both Targaryens and Martells hold tradition of naming female heiresses. So why step back for a second woman, allow to be discarded just for the sake of an old forgotten prophecy that matter little if any to anyone else but Rhaegar? Elia’s health was fragile and weak not Elia.

Rhaegar was the crown Prince, by many believed more sensible than his father. He wanted to call a small council probably to overthrow his father in order to bring stability to the realm. How can someone on one hand desire peace and stability and is willing to act even against his own father and on the other hand runs off with a noble betrothed girl and even remains hidden when the rebellion begins, to reappear only when things had gotten extremely crucial? This behavior is dishonorable and juvenile.

Lyanna was a Stark, wolf-blooded, independent and above all proud. She was the kind of girl least to be lead by girly emotions. Yes, he didn’t love Robert but she knew her duty. After all 99% of the marriages were political. Even if Rhaegar chose to dishonor his wife and family, would a woman like Lyanna do the same? No. If she didn’t wanted Robert she would protest, probably becoming a septa rather than marry a man she didn’t want, but elope with a married man? No. Many believe that they married under a weirwood and in Lyanna’s eyes theirs was the only true marriage. No. The old gods meant nothing to Rhaegar. The Starks consider the marriage under a weirwood legit. But where is it said that they don’t consider legit the marriage in the presence of the Seven? Ned’s and Cat’s weeding isn’t a true one? No. Lyanna consenting to be a second wife for the sake of a prophecy? No. Lyanna’s nature accepting the inevitable fate of a prophecy? No. Lyanna was a fighter. Lyanna too much in love to think anything else, consenting to be a paramour? No. Lyanna was a Stark.

The blue rose is imo a reference to Lyanna. The blue rose on the Wall is probably Jon, Lyanna’s offspring. But is it Rhaegar’s? Was Rhaegar so much in love with Lyanna as to jeopardize everything? No imo. But was Rhaegar so much in love with Lyanna as to assist her, for example with an unintentional pregnancy? I think it’s more believable. Lyanna got pregnate and wanted to save the child. She feared that her family would force an abortion upon her so she run. Rhaegar helped her and then all hell broke loose.

(I can’t take off my mind one of Daenery’s visions. A beautiful woman being savaged by 4 rat faced men. I know it’s suggested that the woman is Westeros but no other of the visions is allegorical. So maybe this isn’t too. Maybe the woman is Lyanna and maybe that’s how she got pregnant. Probably this is wrong but I know I ‘ll be asked to offer a differential for the R+L=J)

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This isn't a matter of hindsight- Rhaegar is offending 3 separate families of Lord Paramounts- Martell, Baratheon and Stark- the last two deeply connected with each other and with two other families of LPs as well, at the same time his father alienated another Lord Paramount, Tywin. And of course, each of the 3 offended families has one member known as a very temperamental and very talented fighter.

Even back in Harrenhal, when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, all the smiles died- people knew it wouldn't end well.

If Rhaegar didn't see how alienate 3 families of Lord Paramounts at the same time his father lost the alliance with another, and Aerys himself is going increasingly unstable, could cause a war, simply because the Targaryens have been around for 280 years, then he's either arrogant and stupid, or.. he was going mad himself- which is what I believe to be the case.

So, Rhaegar should have anticipated a war over a crown of roses, when neither the Starks nor Baratheons called their banners over a kidnapped girl and murdered lord and his heir? Mind you, sparkling a rebellion after a long period of stability is more difficult than at a time of turmoil or abrupt social changes. Robert's rebellion loosened all ties, the mess that occured was after his death was only partly enabled by Cersei's adultery.

And IMO, your view of "Elia was all right with it" just makes her look much weaker, submissive and plain stupid to risk everything she had for nothing, than if Rhaegar simply ignored everything because of his obsession with Lyanna and prophecies.

Rather pragmatic, I'd say. She is, after all, Doran's sister. The odds are against her - sickly, unloved, infertile. Yet, as Barristan notes, she was witty and Rhaegar was fond of her, even though he didn't love her. What better way to ensure her position than swallow her pride and support Rhaegar in securing his succession line? If she plays cleverly, he will feel indebted to her, she might play his feeling of guilt towards her, and if she maintains good relationship with the second wife and her offspring, she greatly reduces any risk to her own. Add to it that Rhaegar is a paragon of chivalry virtues, Lyanna is from the family reknown for strong adherence to honour - these do not seem to be the people who would try to set aside Aegon's claim (now, Cersei and Lannisters would be a different kettle of fish in this respect)

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On whether Lyanna went willingly or not, I don't think there's much room for doubt here. Not only all the others said before (particularly how Ned refers to her wolf's blood leading her to ruin or something), but also that, the way she is described, I doubt, if she had been kidnapped and raped, she would have simply let Rhaegar do what he wanted with her. She would have killed herself long before Ned arrived (and, honestly, she was a warrior - even if she had been tied with ropes throughout her stay at the ToJ, which s unlikely, she would find a way to kill herself). As that didn't happen...

I will say it again:

It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER for Elia to accept Rhaegar having another wife, specially one from a powerful house. It adds absolutely nothing to her or to the Martells, and puts EVERYTHING at risk, including her life and the lives of her children. What's stopping someone from arranging an "accident" for Aegon or Elia so Lyanna or her son can become first in line? Or to begin a war for Rhaegar's younger son to become King instead over some pretext, like being more popular or "Rhaegar wanted him to rule, since he loved Lady Lyanna best"- after all, that was pretty much how the Blackfyre Rebellion strated.

This theory only exists for Rhaegar apologists to make his actions somewhat acceptable.

I will repeat here what I said about a month ago in v.28: the main reason I believe all this was an arrangement between Rhaegar, Lyanna and the Martells is that it gives the Martells (especially Elia) an agency, a significance to the story that so far has been denied. If Elia was aware of what Rhaegar's plans were, if he really wanted a third child that much and/or was so obsessed with the Stark's part in the prophecy, then she knew there was nothing she could do to stop him. If she collaborated with him, on the other hand, there would be room for bargain, she could get something in return. In that scenario, Elia ceases to be the poor, sickly, wronged wife and becomes a major player - which, for me, seems to be a much more interesting way to define her, a Dornish, than any of the descriptions we've seen so far of her in the books, or by the readers. Too much has been invested in the Martells for them to be the fools who spend years planning revenge and can do nothing right as the books seem to have shown so far.

And, for me, the main evidence the Martells were aware of what was going on, the thing that's bugged me from the moment I first read the books, is this (and this is where I'm reposting what I said in v.28): Arthur Dayne's involvement. Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend and considered one of the greatest knights in Westeros around the time he died, so I think it's safe to say he was about the prince's age, perhaps a few years older, but certainly not younger than him. Elia Martell was two years older than Rhaegar - this leads to the conclusion that Arthur and her (and Oberyn, and probably Ashara as well) were fostered in the Water Gardens around the same time. So, most likely before his friendship with Rhaegar began, Arthur had already been Elia's friend for years. You all know how protective we are of our childhood friends - if Arthur felt Rhaegar's actions were damaging to Elia in any way, if he had any personal objections to his plans (and liege lord or not, from what is said in the books of their friendship I do think R would allow him to express his opinions, even consult him at times), do you really think R would have chosen him to go to the ToJ with them? That he would have trusted him enough? Or chosen to offend yet another close companion by forcing him to do something like that, guarding Lyanna?

Not only this possible childhood friendship leads me to this conclusion; it's also the fact that, damn, he's Dornish! It doesn't matter that he became a Kingsguard later owing allegiance to the king and his family before all else, part of his loyalty would always be with the Martells! The same for Ashara, who was Elia's companion (like an older version of Margaery and her companions, look at how close they are) - if the Martells weren't into whatever Rhaegar was planning, would the Daynes be involved to such an extent in all this, to the point of lending someone from their household (Wylla) to help Lyanna?

When I say the Martells were probably aware and part of Rhaegar's plans I mean they would have more to gain from being a part of it than from opposing him. I won't even touch the possibility that Harrenhall was truly arranged so that Rhaegar could conspire with the high lords to dethrone Aerys; let's keep it simple: if Rhaegar was madly in love with Lyanna/obsessed with a prophecy he now believed she had a part in fulfilling and Elia was aware of it, then she probably knew him well enough to know that he would go on with his plans regardless of her feelings on the subject. Then, why oppose him when she could support his decision and benefit from it somehow? I don't know exactly what the advantage could be for the Martells, but there are many possibilities, the most relevant being a greater Dornish participation in the Crown's politics: places in the Small Council, military positions (and Dorne already had two KG), maybe even putting people they trusted in prestigious positions with the Citadel and the Faith. Also, I see Elia as a woman who most likely had to rely on cunning, since her body wouldn't be of much use in her constantly sick state. It wouldn't be that hard to explore Rhaegar's guilt to her ends, and she probably thought that, wild girl from the North or not, it wouldn't be too hard to exert her influence over Lyanna, ten years younger than herself.

And as to the argument that agreeing to let Rhaegar marry another would jeopardize Elia's position and put her children at peril, well... As I said above, opposing him would be worse, for Rhaegar would cease to trust her and she wold have no one but her Dornish family members to protect her against any plans. Remember how the Dornish are all compared to snakes? They're certainly more cunning than to let that happen. As to her children, one can argue that they would be at peril anyway - I mean, if Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna, any family that managed to get a high position in King's Landing could plan Aegon's and Rhaenys' deaths, even Elia's, anyway, so that Rhaegar would marry some other girl that would produce him heirs. I'd say that if Rhaegar had not one, but two wifes, the chances of that happening are slimmer, for they would have to kill many more people, and there's no way they could do that without raising suspiscions. If anything, Lyanna as second queen would actually protect them, for the only ones interested if Elia's fall would be the Starks, and, as people will never cease to repeat in these forums, the Starks were known for their honor, so...

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Interesting points, Lady Octarina.

There is one thing I always wondered, and I am not sure whether the question has been answered before, but how did Ned travel back to Winterfell with baby Jon? I assume he went by boat because he didn't pick up Catelyn along the way home (if he traveled by land he should have since they were married), yet he didn't return to King's Landing with baby Jon to hire a boat there, as far as I am aware. Wouldn't that mean he took ship in Dorne? If he did, wouldn't Doran be aware of the fact? It's not every day practice that the Warden of the North sails from a Dornish harbor. Or are there other harbors between Dorne and King's Landing where Ned could've hired a ship?

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