Who are the Spirits in the Tent during MMD's ritual?

[The Fresh PtwP]

I'm 98% sure whatever voice Varys heard when he was cut was in that tent...

[Jaheira]

I think the wolf is the great other and the man wreathed in flames is azor ahai.

the great other assumption is strenghened by the facts that Jon does not dream about Othor after he killed him, but imagines his own "father" ned to be a wight. Also the referring to the Starks as Kings of Winter and the whole Nights King story

[oursisthefury69]

What a great example of a really great thread topic, in which you mysteriously wont see any of the supposedly wiser and non-stop posters constantly bumping it like R+L=J because there's no degree of certainty in what happened in that tent. One of the more mysterious and interesting magical occurrences in the books along with Tyrions encounter with the Bridge of Dream, something else you wont see frequently discussed on these forums because people just want to talk near certain theories to death, and avoid things like this to avoid being later referenced as being wrong, as opposed to the other theoretical misconception of beieving people will praise such threads such as R+L=J after the theory comes to fruition.

[Trigger Warning]

Tupac and Biggie.

[Dryhtscipe]

I suppose the wolf would be Bran and the man wreathed in flames would be Elvis.

[Lost Melnibonean]

What a great example of a really great thread topic, in which you mysteriously wont see any of the supposedly wiser and non-stop posters constantly bumping it like R+L=J because there's no degree of certainty in what happened in that tent. One of the more mysterious and interesting magical occurrences in the books along with Tyrions encounter with the Bridge of Dream, something else you wont see frequently discussed on these forums because people just want to talk near certain theories to death, and avoid things like this to avoid being later referenced as being wrong, as opposed to the other theoretical misconception of beieving people will praise such threads such as R+L=J after the theory comes to fruition.

:)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96720-trying-to-explain-the-weird-rewind-at-the-bridge-of-dream/

[Mithras]

Although I don't know the reason why, I think the great wolf is Brandon Stark and the man wreathed in flames is Rickard Stark. One of the inhumane shadows might be Aerys (a dragon).

It is also interesting because in the next chapter, Ned was beheaded and I think his execution is related to the appearance of the comet.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Although I don't know the reason why, I think the great wolf is Brandon Stark and the man wreathed in flames is Rickard Stark. One of the inhumane shadows might be Aerys (a dragon).

It is also interesting because in the next chapter, Ned was beheaded and I think his execution is related to the appearance of the comet.

That's pretty good. I don't recall seeing that explanation before.

[Stannis in the middle]

any new thoughts on this?

This is a major clue for... something. I also like the post force Varys heard when he was cut was present in the tent...

[Saint Saga]

Azor ahai and his dog (from the last hero tale).

[TheNorthRemember]

The shadows are malignant and take on the appearance of the enemies of Dany? I think the shadows Dany mocked saying that everything was going to wake up and mal.Cuando Dany could bring you thoughts about the child know that everything went mal.pd I always thought that when you say if I look back I am lost to the timing shadows and deaths occurred.

[Lord BitterRaven]

I thought they were spirits of the dead. Mirri Maz Duur at least says: "My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night."

Then lets see some descriptions of what is going on. "The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she [Daenerys] glimpsed shadows moving. Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone. ... The sound of Mirri Maz Duur's voice was like a funeral dirge. Inside the tent, the shadows whirled. ... Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathen in flames...."

The next chapter leads us to the tormented dreams of Daenerys. And again there are ghosts, possibly connected with what she experienced in the tent. "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade."

Does anyone else notice the fact that there's mention of "some" shadows, not "two" shadows dancing? My interpretation is that Mirri is calling on the many faced god (god of death) and the great wolf (this is a total guess that the wolf is the face of death for one of the religons) and the man wreathed in flames is R'hllor (is an aspect of the many faced god). It also makes sense that she call upon the god of death to bring back someone who is dead.

But that's not really what I wanted to point out. I wanted to point out what Dany sees while she's recovering. "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade." According to The World of Ice and Fire, the eyes describe the god-emperors of Yi-Ti. The hair she describes them having is eerily similar to the Targs and why are they all holding pale, flaming swords? Are the Valyrians somehow related to the god-emperors that lived thousands of years before (if so it could explain who is responsible for the Five Forts)? Is Dany supposed to become the next Pearl Emperor?

[addicted to snow]

What a great example of a really great thread topic, in which you mysteriously wont see any of the supposedly wiser and non-stop posters constantly bumping it like R+L=J because there's no degree of certainty in what happened in that tent. One of the more mysterious and interesting magical occurrences in the books along with Tyrions encounter with the Bridge of Dream, something else you wont see frequently discussed on these forums because people just want to talk near certain theories to death, and avoid things like this to avoid being later referenced as being wrong, as opposed to the other theoretical misconception of beieving people will praise such threads such as R+L=J after the theory comes to fruition.

Oh, great post!!!

[Not a kneeler]

I think the OP had it right. One is the Great Other, the other is R'hllor.

Both Mel and Moqorro say there are only two gods. One of them is the Great Other and the other is R'hllor. The great Other is The weirwood network. We can identify some of their components: the weirwoods, the CotF, Bloodraven, Bran. Why GRRM chose to depict this group in the shape of a wolf is unknown. The other shape is undoubtedly R'hllor. It's a lovely catch by the OP.

GRRM calls the white walkers the others, and then has Moqorro and Mel refer to the Great Other as the enemy of R'hllor expecting us to immediately associate this with the white walkers. Mel sees Bran and Bloodraven in her flames and says "Was this the enemy?" The first thing that leaped to my mind was that Mel got it wrong. Alas, she did not. They are truly the enemy of her god.

I picked this notion up a while ago but had no real evidence to back it up. Then, some two weeks ago I started to really look closely at all the evidence. There seem to be two streams of magic, blood magic and fire magic. There are, also, a number of magics that may fall into one of the categories and yet not belong to one of the major gods. The pyromancers of KL made wildfire much more easily as the power in the north grew, but they are not practitioners of that religion. (I still don't know what to do with Qyburn who is a necromancer. He has some magic, but he is an outlier on my chart.) According to Moqorro, the Drownded God is thrall of The Great Other, or the weirwood network. He has some power and has saved three. Dany used fire magic to hatch her dragons, but she is not a follower of R'hllor. It's all very confusing and I am glad I used a pencil when I made my chart.

One of the most telling clues is whose magic has fluctuated in power since the beginning of the books. This was the true tip-off. Almost all of those who had a increase in power fell into the R'hllor group or the White Walker group. The outliers never fell into the weirwood network group. R'hllor and the White Walkers have one thing in common beside the power fluctuation - they are both temperature magics.

There are still a lot of unknowns involved in the magical occurrences, but a lot of the confusion dissipates once you start think in terms of just two main groups.

[Ser Sourleaf]

I agree that the shapes Dany saw in the tent were representations of R'hllor and the Great Other.  I believe that Rhaego (the blood of a king) was the sacrifice required to hatch Dany's dragons.

One interesting thing I noticed from my re-read was something that occurred when Ser Jorah was yelling for the birthing women to help Dany, and was told that they had all gone.

 

"The maegi." someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

 

The voice was never identified, but it was clearly masculine if Dany thought it could be Aggo.  However no male present at the time would have made that suggestion.  It's only after the voice suggests the maegi that Irrih and Doreah agree that MMD had knowledge of birthing.  Perhaps the voice belonged to R'hllor himself, knowing that Rhaego was the sacrifice required.

 

This is not the only time in the books that an unidentified voice suggests a certain action.  When the bodies of Othor and Jafer are found and the men of the NW are examining them:

 

"Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who.

 

Another unidentified voice, urging the burning of two wights.  Both times GRRM uses this speaker, he points out that the POV character is unsure of its origin.  If it was just a random person in the crowd, why bother pointing it out?

[Avlonnic]

I agree that the shapes Dany saw in the tent were representations of R'hllor and the Great Other.  I believe that Rhaego (the blood of a king) was the sacrifice required to hatch Dany's dragons.

One interesting thing I noticed from my re-read was something that occurred when Ser Jorah was yelling for the birthing women to help Dany, and was told that they had all gone.

 

"The maegi." someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

 

The voice was never identified, but it was clearly masculine if Dany thought it could be Aggo.  However no male present at the time would have made that suggestion.  It's only after the voice suggests the maegi that Irrih and Doreah agree that MMD had knowledge of birthing.  Perhaps the voice belonged to R'hllor himself, knowing that Rhaego was the sacrifice required.

 

This is not the only time in the books that an unidentified voice suggests a certain action.  When the bodies of Othor and Jafer are found and the men of the NW are examining them:

 

"Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who.

 

Another unidentified voice, urging the burning of two wights.  Both times GRRM uses this speaker, he points out that the POV character is unsure of its origin.  If it was just a random person in the crowd, why bother pointing it out?

 

Nice point.  I forgot about this.  As I recall, there are other instances where people 'hear' a disembodied voice but are unsure of the source. 

For example, GOT, Arya IV: 

     "Calm as still water, a small voice whispered in her ear. Arya was so startled she almost dropped her bundle. She looked around wildly, but there was no one in the stable but her, and the horses, and the dead men."

[direwolves_and_dragons]

On my third re-read of GOT and I love how many interpretations there can be of this, almost all of which someone has listed on this post. In some ways the wolf and man wreathing in fire alludes to Brandon and Rickard's deaths, to Jon, the Wighted Othor and Ghost, to R'hollor and the Great Other (though I don't see the Great Other being represented by a Wolf personally) or even R'hollor and Bran/Bloodraven (enemies or unknown allies, who knows?). It could be a narrative link between the events of RR and Dany's journey if it refers to Aerys/Brandon/Rickard or one of the earlier links between Jon and Dany's story, if referring to Jon/Othor/Ghost before the winter rose in the Wall vision in HOTU, ACOK.

It could refer to Ned's death in the next chapter and Stannis' campaign following on from this, with Stannis' connection to shadows and the likeness of his sigil. It would not be the only foreshadowing Dany sees of Robb Stark if he were the "great wolf" instead. The R+L=J hint is again possible but was not one of my first thoughts. Even though I'm more than solid on R+L=J, I don's see Rhaegar as the man wreathed in fire, unless this is an allusion to Summerhall and his birth (which I haven't seen anyone suggest, thoughts?) and even then I don't think it necessarily fits as well as many of the other interpretations. Perhaps the "great wolf" and man wreathed in flames are alternatively Jon's two sides and his wreathing in flames is his resurrection. There's really too many great interpretations and not enough for me to land on one as a solid, there probably are several which are valid. I hope after reading TWOW or ADOS we can look back and shed more light on this but, it would not surprise me if it only opens up more interpretations.

Also, nice spot on the mystery voices. I'll keep my eyes peeled for more of these as I re-read ACOK-ADWD.

[Lost Melnibonean]

44 minutes ago, direwolves_and_dragons said:

On my third re-read of GOT and I love how many interpretations there can be of this, almost all of which someone has listed on this post. In some ways the wolf and man wreathing in fire alludes to Brandon and Rickard's deaths, to Jon, the Wighted Othor and Ghost, to R'hollor and the Great Other (though I don't see the Great Other being represented by a Wolf personally) or even R'hollor and Bran/Bloodraven (enemies or unknown allies, who knows?). It could be a narrative link between the events of RR and Dany's journey if it refers to Aerys/Brandon/Rickard or one of the earlier links between Jon and Dany's story, if referring to Jon/Othor/Ghost before the winter rose in the Wall vision in HOTU, ACOK.

It could refer to Ned's death in the next chapter and Stannis' campaign following on from this, with Stannis' connection to shadows and the likeness of his sigil. It would not be the only foreshadowing Dany sees of Robb Stark if he were the "great wolf" instead. The R+L=J hint is again possible but was not one of my first thoughts. Even though I'm more than solid on R+L=J, I don's see Rhaegar as the man wreathed in fire, unless this is an allusion to Summerhall and his birth (which I haven't seen anyone suggest, thoughts?) and even then I don't think it necessarily fits as well as many of the other interpretations. Perhaps the "great wolf" and man wreathed in flames are alternatively Jon's two sides and his wreathing in flames is his resurrection. There's really too many great interpretations and not enough for me to land on one as a solid, there probably are several which are valid. I hope after reading TWOW or ADOS we can look back and shed more light on this but, it would not surprise me if it only opens up more interpretations.

Also, nice spot on the mystery voices. I'll keep my eyes peeled for more of these as I re-read ACOK-ADWD.

The RLJ his is more about the overarching theme of ice and fire. The wolf is ice. "For me, the story started with the direwolves in the snow..." 

[direwolves_and_dragons]

Yea, I agree and I get the general symbolism between the wolf as ice and man wreathed in fire as ...fire which as you say fits well with R+L=J. I also like that there are several interpretations which fit more directly with say the specific wording, rather than the general theme: like the Othor/Jon/Ghost example. It is these interpretations which I was referring to as I find the specific wording of a man wreathed in flame and a great wolf fit some of the other interpretations just as well or better perhaps in isolation but R+L=J is as you've said clearly an 'overarching' theme and is in some way linked to many (if not all) of the more specific scenarios the words allude to which have been highlighted in the thread. It is for this reason, some of the other interpretations come to the forefront of my mind when reading this and the R+L=J connection is more of a subtle one.

Out of interest, where is the, "for me, the story started with the direwolves in the snow", quote from? Just curious, I quite like it

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, direwolves_and_dragons said:

Yea, I agree and I get the general symbolism between the wolf as ice and man wreathed in fire as ...fire which as you say fits well with R+L=J. I also like that there are several interpretations which fit more directly with say the specific wording, rather than the general theme: like the Othor/Jon/Ghost example. It is these interpretations which I was referring to as I find the specific wording of a man wreathed in flame and a great wolf fit some of the other interpretations just as well or better perhaps in isolation but R+L=J is as you've said clearly an 'overarching' theme and is in some way linked to many (if not all) of the more specific scenarios the words allude to which have been highlighted in the thread. It is for this reason, some of the other interpretations come to the forefront of my mind when reading this and the R+L=J connection is more of a subtle one.

Out of interest, where is the, "for me, the story started with the direwolves in the snow", quote from? Just curious, I quite like it

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html