Dany and Stannis: a Comparative Look

[butterbumps!]

Since no thread appears safe to discuss one of these characters without bringing in the other anymore and going off topic, I thought it would be productive to start this thread to redirect these debates to a sanctioned location.

Please, please PLEASE keep this as civil and as analytical as possible. There are obviously good comparisons to be made and strong feelings about these two, but let's be judicious in how we debate this with each other.

Some issues that have been brought up as points of debate are:

• the ruler versus subjects
  
• goals and the way to achieve them
  
• morality
  

I would also add that it seems these two are often brought up as comparison figures as a means of finding common ground between the supporters of both sides to tease out consistency. For example, it's commonly asked "Why are shadowbabies ok but using dragons are not?" or "Stannis is entitled, so why is Dany criticized for this?" It would probably be helpful that if you are approaching one more favorably than the other on common issues like this to make the rubric you're using clear.

Go to town and please be nice.

[Ser Uncle P]

One similarity is neither wannabe monarch can appoint relatives to important positions,coz of geographical estrangement (dany) and familial estrangement (stannis). They both end up appointing unlikely characters as aides, In fairness would anyone see Davos or Missandei getting such trust of a traditional ruler in King's Landing?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis is a leader who has proves himself in serious battler. During the Siege of Storm's End he kept the castle safe for a year against Tyrells.

He also is the one between them who has a legal claim to the throne. Even Dany ever had one she lost it after Robert’s Rebellion.

Also he isn’t boring and narcissist like she is.

[Sevumar]

I posted this in the other thread, but it seems like a better fit here.

Here are the main differences between Stannis and Dany:

• Stannis is the legal heir to the Iron Throne. Dany is merely a pretender from a fallen dyansty seeking to reestablish that house's dominance over Westeros.
  
• Stannis has already fought in one war of succession (and in a war to put down a rebellion), so he knows what these wars do to the realm. He only decided to enter the war on his brother's side after a difficult decision comparing what loyalty to one's monarch means, versus loyalty to one's family.
  
• Stannis is a man for whom law and order are the all-consuming concerns of the crown. When he asserts royal prerogative or royal privilege, it is usually in the service of upholding the law and safety of the realm. He is not a man who sought the crown for his own aggrandizement, rather he accepts that as the legal heir to Robert, it is his duty to rule. This is a much more restrained view than the ones taken by other Iron Throne claimants.
  

In contrast, Dany has been raised with the view that rulership of a land she has never seen is her inborn right. For her, justice is whatever flows from the direction her moral compass is pointing at any given time, rather than from a well-established set of principles laid down in law. While such a view can occasionally be beneficial, in the long term, it's only going to serve to destabilize whatever polity Dany rules. It makes it impossible for her people to know what they may do and what the penalties for crimes are. This approach also makes it impossible to delegate any of the tasks associated with carrying out justice since each petition and each punishment must be handed down by Dany herself.

[Été]

They both spend a lot of time whining about how the Seven Kingdoms are theirs by right, but Stannis seems to look at kingship as a duty that carries implicit responsibilities - and actually gets off his rear to fulfil them, with or without the support of the people at large. He's not really out for glory or adulation, he wants his just deserts, and he doesn't balk at the prospect of fighting in defence of a kingdom that doesn't even like him.

In fairness to Dany, she has shown a pretty similar outlook in trying to set Meereen to rights, but my issue with her as heir is that she continues to lay claim to the Iron Throne without giving any thought to what Westeros might actually need from a ruler. She's not interested in the continuing political situation or the plight of the smallfolk; I'm not saying that she wouldn't care even if she did know about them, but it simply hasn't crossed her mind that her lineage may not be enough.

[Garlan Marius]

The dragons are similar in a way to Melisandre. Both empower their king/queen politically (Mel with her magical powers, killing Renly, etc., and the dragons by virtue of existing and dracarys). Both play a part in their claims (beknownst or not) to Azor Ahai reborn, and both are a reason people don't like/ fear Stannis or Daenerys.

Not exactly well thought-out, but the similarity is there.

[Tagganaro]

Obviously I think I gotta agree with Sevumar. Stannis really believes that Cersei's children are bastards born of incest, so if he believes that then for all he knows he is the rightful King of Westeros right now.

He will fight for what he thinks he deserves and is owed to him.

[Sevumar]

They both spend a lot of time whining about how the Seven Kingdoms are theirs by right, but Stannis seems to look at kingship as a duty that carries implicit responsibilities - and actually gets off his rear to fulfil them, with or without the support of the people at large. He's not really out for glory or adulation, he wants his just deserts, and he doesn't balk at the prospect of fighting in defence of a kingdom that doesn't even like him.

Good point. I don't really see Stannis's complaints as "whining," though. In his moments of honesty with Davos, Stannis comes across as a world-weary man who would rather not have to take up this burden if he had a choice. His view of "entitlement" is similar to Dany's in that both feel obligated to assume their roles, but the similarity ends there. Stannis's view is a much more reluctant one, and a much more mature one. He doesn't see any personal gain coming from his position as monarch, he just wants everyone to respect what the laws of succession say, put down their arms, and move on to more important business.

I think it's significant that he's the only claimant who has made a meaningful move to defend the realm from outside threats.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would not want the Stannis of Clash of Kings or even Storm of Swords as my king. But in Dance of Dragons, he showed that he was willing to adapt and willing to actually put in the legwork necessary to earn the throne, by treating with the mountain clans, relieving Deepwood Motte and marching to face the Boltons. It's like a light bulb went off in his head.

Stannis, even if he doesn't like it, is also not afraid to face harsh truths and respects his advisers telling it to him straight. You can easily see that he has little regard for the yes-men in his camp. Contrast that with Dany, who surrounds herself with ass-kissing sycophants and immediately shoots down any advice or information that doesn't comport with her preconceived plans or opinions. In Stannis' position in ADWD, Dany would have marched on the Dreadfort and gotten slaughtered. Stannis cut through the crap, saw Jon's advice for the wisdom it contained, and pursued another path.

I feel like Stannis has gotten less entitled as the series has progressed, whereas Dany has only gotten more entitled.

ETA: And I also respect his regard for laws. He is, plainly, the "legal" heir to the throne. And yes, legality without power doesn't mean much, but isn't it kind of a slippery slope if laws can just be set aside for the lulz?

[Lummel]

They both spend a lot of time whining about how the Seven Kingdoms are theirs by right, but Stannis seems to look at kingship as a duty that carries implicit responsibilities - and actually gets off his rear to fulfil them, with or without the support of the people at large. He's not really out for glory or adulation, he wants his just deserts, and he doesn't balk at the prospect of fighting in defence of a kingdom that doesn't even like him.

...she continues to lay claim to the Iron Throne without giving any thought to what Westeros might actually need from a ruler...it simply hasn't crossed her mind that her lineage may not be enough.

Isn't that exactly the same with Stannis? And does Westeros need a ruler who is regarded as stiff, grudge bearing and unable to compromise whose only calm to the throne is based on his lineage?

Aside from those similarities there is also the sense of duty, a rather absolute sense of justice and punishment and a preparedness to take bold moves militarily but otherwise they strike me as rather contrasting figures. The unease middle son schooled to self-denial, all his emotions so tightly locked down that even his anger he can express only through teeth grinding while Daenerys can come across as more open and relaxed - certainly a far more approachable figure (on a good day).

[Raerin]

This thread is going to be Westeros: Total War.

I believe the comparative look is not good enough for methodological reasons. Some criteria should be established on which we can compare those two characters. Without some guidelines, frankly it is going to be a mess. My proposal is as follows:

Dany-Stannis:

• the ruler versus subjects
  
• goals and the way to achieve them
  
• morality
  

[Garlan Marius]

Isn't that exactly the same with Stannis? And does Westeros need a ruler who is regarded as stiff, grudge bearing and unable to compromise whose only calm to the throne is based on his lineage?

When Stannis gets to the Wall and realizes that he should concentrate on the duties of a king (protecting the realm) as opposed to actually being king, he doesn't fit that definition.

[butterbumps!]

This thread is going to be Westeros: Total War.

I believe the comparative look is not good enough for methodological reasons. Some criteria should be established on which we can compare those two characters. Without some guidelines, frankly it is going to be a mess. My proposal is as follows:

Dany-Stannis:

• the ruler versus subjects
  
• goals and the way to achieve them
  
• morality
  

Sure- I'll put that in the OP. I just assumed that this thread would write itself given that topics that don't even pertain to these two somehow end up being debates about Dany v Stannis.

[Dany4eva]

Character wise I find stannis very one dimensional and boring whereas dany is more interesting and multi dimensional.

At the moment dany's leadership style is a bit iffy. I reserve judgement of it until we see how and if she resolves conflict in meereen. Stannis is a good leader but easily manipulated by mel. But I am sure he would be a good king. He will probably die soon tho if not already as he is nowhere near a main character.

[Sevumar]

The unease middle son schooled to self-denial, all his emotions so tightly locked down that even his anger he can express only through teeth grinding while Daenerys can come across as more open and relaxed - certainly a far more approachable figure (on a good day).

Dany can be a more approachable figure, for those she is inclined to identify with or champion. On the other had, if you hail from a group that Dany dislikes, or you hold a belief that Dany disagrees with, you're going to find your reception rather chilling.

Recall the court session from early in Dance where Dany hears the petition of the Green Grace's cousin. His petition has no merit, but instead of merely dismissing it, Dany decides to impose a penalty on him because he forgot the name of a slave he once owned. A ruler who is incapable of treating her subjects fairly is one who is going to throw away a lot of legitimacy and some opportunities to solve problems. As much as it might pain her to admit it, she needs the help of the moderates and some of the traditionalists in Meereen and her actions at court have turned many into enemies.

Now, Stannis is a rather stern figure, but with a Hand like Davos, he's shown that if he's willing to make the Onion Knight the public face of his reign, he will actually prove more charismatic and more approachable than you'd think at first glance. Think about it, a Hand with humble origins who earned the trust of the monarch and his position through service (leading him to help Stannis pass the same test in turn). Not only does Davos bring with him the bravery and honesty of a good adviser, but he also has a view of life very different from that of Stannis. It think he'd be a great proxy for the king at court in peacetime.

[Lummel]

I would not want the Stannis of Clash of Kings or even Storm of Swords as my king. But in Dance of Dragons, he showed that he was willing to adapt and willing to actually put in the legwork necessary to earn the throne, by treating with the mountain clans, relieving Deepwood Motte and marching to face the Boltons. It's like a light bulb went off in his head...

Effectively a light bulb did go off in his head - one that we know as Jon Snow. Stannis did well because he followed Jon's advice once he excedes that and progresses towards Winterfell things don't go so well. We can look at that and say that Stannis could be a capable ruler if he has excellent advisers, alternatively we could look at that at think that Stannis might be better placed as a Lieutenant to a more capable ruler in the first place.

Stannis at least has the moral advice of Davos (who is the one who tells him to act as a King and protect the realm) and the strategic input of Jon. Daenerys' advisors are bad on first blush and appalling on closer analysis.

When Stannis gets to the Wall and realizes that he should concentrate on the duties of a king (protecting the realm) as opposed to actually being king, he doesn't fit that definition.

Daenerys also has a strong conception of rulership as a duty.

[Garlan Marius]

He will probably die soon tho if not already as he is nowhere near a main character.

He is the thirteenth most-mentioned character in the series.

3009 Jon Snow

2932 Tyrion Lannister

1767 Arya Stark

1701 Jaime Lannister

1594 Daenerys Targaryen

1524 Sansa Stark

1439 Bran Stark

1367 Eddard Stark

1229 Catelyn Tully

1180 Cersei Lannister

1162 Robb Stark

1140 Samwell Tarly

1125 Stannis Baratheon

_{Source http://www.sporcle.com/games/Sforzando/song-of-ice-and-fire-top-300}

He's pretty major.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Effectively a light bulb did go off in his head - one that we know as Jon Snow. Stannis did well because he followed Jon's advice once he excedes that and progresses towards Winterfell things don't go so well. We can look at that and say that Stannis could be a capable ruler if he has excellent advisers, alternatively we could look at that at think that Stannis might be better placed as a Lieutenant to a more capable ruler in the first place.

Stannis at least has the moral advice of Davos (who is the one who tells him to act as a King and protect the realm) and the strategic input of Jon. Daenerys' advisors are bad on first blush and appalling on closer analysis.

But the company a king keeps reflects on him. If Stannis keeps good counsel — Jon and Davos, namely — that speaks to his ability to recognize merit and quality advice. If Dany's advisers are terrible, that reflects poorly on her and on her choices of counsel.

He will probably die soon tho if not already as he is nowhere near a main character.

Now that Robb's dead, Stannis is probably the most important non-POV character in the series, as far as front-and-center action. Certainly, after Robb, he's the most mentioned.

[Garlan Marius]

Daenerys also has a strong conception of rulership as a duty.

Could you clarify?

[Sevumar]

We can look at that and say that Stannis could be a capable ruler if he has excellent advisers, alternatively we could look at that at think that Stannis might be better placed as a Lieutenant to a more capable ruler in the first place.

This made me think that both Stannis and Dany are both "big picture" kinds of people, with the main difference being that Stannis knows he's wrong and needs his advisers to chart the right course, while Dany often goes it alone and does things on a whim. Stannis has surrounded himself with some good advisers and some bad ones, but he generally seems to know how to sort through the bad advice and find the nuggets of the good. We can't say that Dany's learned this lesson yet.

Daenerys also has a strong conception of rulership as a duty.

I don't think that we can say this is universally true. Daenerys has a strong conception of duty to her clients, people like the freedmen, the Unsullied, and her remaining Dothraki followers. Perhaps also to those who have taken a risk by openly allying with her in Meereen, but her attitudes toward most of the Meereenese show that this isn't true for all people in her power.