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POVs, Unreliable Narrator, and You


Kittykatknits

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Dr. Pepper and I have had some discussions in other threads about the narrative style used within ASOIAF and how we can use this knowledge to better understand the subject material.

In a third person limited narration, the narrator is limited to the thoughts and feelings of a single character. The only insight revealed about other characters is external and dependent upon what the POV character thinks and feels about them. The unreliable narrator is when the narrator's credibility cannot be relied upon. The reliability might be as simple as the narrator not having all of the pertinent facts or more complicated such as when the narrator confuses known facts or misremembers scenes for whatever reasons.

When these modes of storytelling are used together, the reader is forced to constantly reevaluate the story as a whole as new information is presented. This approach lends an element of realism because, as we all know, people lie, there is more than one side to every story, and memory can be faulty. Plots, schemes, motives, and character traits cannot be fully realized via one character. It requires the reader to pull information that is presented by many different characters sometimes living or traveling on completely different continents.

So what does this mean for us? We need to be willing to look beyond the words on paper and ask ourselves what is really happening and question motives. A POV’s perceptions are not reality. In other words, to understand what is really taking place in this series, we need to put some work into it. If a reader does not make this effort, then over half of the story is being missed.

The goal of this thread is to encourage discussion on the narrative style of the series, to hopefully facilitate a stronger understanding for all of us on how to better read and understand ASOIAF. We are not trying to change anyone’s mind on a particular character or encourage debate on more controversial plots within the series.

Examples:

Viserys and the Hired Knives

In Dany's chapters, we learn that she and Viserys were constantly on the move because they were fleeing from Robert's hired knives. However, we see in a Ned chapter that Robert regrets never sending hired knives after them when he had the chance on advice from Jon Arryn. This revelation does not undermine Dany's fear of these hired knives. She believed them to be a very real threat to her life and safety. However, it reveals to the reader that Viserys was unwilling to admit to the real reason why they were always on the move: no one took him seriously enough to offer him assistance in claiming the Iron Throne nor to offer them indefinite shelter free-of-charge. It also reveals to the reader that Dany is not as observant as she thinks she is.

The Death of Lady

In Ned’s chapter, we see Sansa claim not to remember the events that led to Joffrey being attacked and Cersei calling for the death of Lady shortly thereafter. If we go by this chapter alone, it appears that Sansa is responsible for the death of Lady. Later, we even learn that Sansa blames Arya for getting Lady killed. But, neither of these interpretations are the correct one. Later in GOT, Ned talks with Robert who admits that he should have behaved differently and that he capitulated to Cersei. Yet, it is not until three books later during a Jaime chapter in Feast that we learn the rest of the story. Robert and Cersei had been up the night before arguing until Robert passed out in to a drunken slumber. Cersei was out for blood and seizing an opportunity to kill a wolf. Robert, unwilling to stand up to Cersei, chose to let it happen.

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Great thread! I agree that the narrative style can be misleading and we are challenged to rethink a lot of what we initially learn from a POV, especially if we are inclined to be sympathetic/unsympathetic towards said character. A character who off the top of my head can be pretty unreliable is Tyrion. He has a habit of presenting himself as this lovelorn, despised dwarf who can't catch a break and this earns him great sympathy and consideration in the fandom. However, when we take ourselves outside of his POV and gain some perspective, we realise for example that the people of KL had a legitimate reason to be upset by the mountain clans who went around terrorizing and pillaging, whilst Tyrion imagines he was doing the best for them.

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Those are very good examples. I love the one about Dany and the hired knives. It is true we as a reader have to work doubly hard in order to truly grasp what is going on. It's one reason why deaths are so unreliable too because the POV shuts off when the character blacks out. Like with Theon in Winterfell (who I thought might have died) and with Arya when the Hound gets her in the back of the head with an ax. (I admit to furiously flipping chapter to chapter after that to make sure there was another Arya POV after that!)

But what makes it all the more interesting to me is that there are characters we never get the POV of. Some of my favorite characters we only see through other eyes (like Sandor for instance). And some of the best players like Littlefinger and Varys remain a constant mystery and you have to work through layers of double speak and motive and consideration of what he is saying to whom for exactly what purpose?

I think the most interesting concept though is having a character that comes into POV later. Like Cersei and Jamie. One question that follows me through the book is: Is Cersei always paranoid/crazy? Or is this only after the Purple Wedding? We can't account for it because we can't see her POV before the wedding and we have no strict basis of comparison. At what point did she deteriorate from "game playing" to "paranoid hunting." Or was that always her motive?

One of the strangest POV issues was reading Sam in AFFC and Jon in ADWD. They retell us the same events in vastly different manners and that is a big hint I think to take everything any character says with a grain of salt. We don't know the motives of the other characters and just seeing the difference in events that link up so closely is quite shocking. If we put Sam and Jon's chapters side by side we get entire differing views of the events. Sam is upset about being sent away especially to be a maester while Jon is sending him away because he needs Sam in the long run. It also tells us more about their characters, Jon is more far thinking while Sam doesn't look as far to the future. We can also see that Aemon is more like Jon in that he can see how things might stretch years down the road and he understands what Jon does even when Sam doesn't.

And another thought that crosses my mind is: do we get the POV of villains? No character in this series is a saint, but we seem to get a lot of character changes/development. In the first book we don't see Cersei or Jamie POV, but by the third book we do. By then we see Jamie losing his hand to have a slight "change of heart," and Cersei is now afraid of everyone being out to get her (is Margery the main female antagonist in KL now? Does Cersei having her own POV show us that Margery has already won?) And the main main "players" who seem to be always antagonist are Littlefinger and Varys. By all means once Cersei and Jamie get their own POV's they seem to be more along the lines of protagonists, with their own "quests" as opposed to just playing against others. When they first got chapters I was thinking "alright now we gt to see into the minds of some villains," but it turns out a little differently once they start talking.

And I'm very interested in Barristan getting POV chapters because he was a silent figure in the background for so long. He seems reluctant to take the helm and actually become a protagonist. It feels almost like the POV was forced upon him just as the job of working as the Queen's representative within Mereen is.

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Another brilliant one is the detective story regarding LF's bad deeds.

* In AGOT, Ned is beheaded, supposedly Joffrey's idea.

* In ACOK Varys mentions to Tyrion that maybe someone was behind Joffrey's idea to behead Ned, but Tyrion doesn't really understand.

* Lampshading: Later on we see Littlefinger telling Sansa of his "suggesting" to Joffrey that the dwarves on pigs would be great entertainment for his wedding. Which enrages Tyrion and implicates him in Joffrey's murder. This is revealed in a Sansa chapter later in ASOS.

* Then in Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter in ADWD she thinks that immediately after Ned was beheaded, LF begged her for Sansa's hand in marriage, but Cersei chose to refuse him because he was too lowborn.

Connect the dots.....

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Another brilliant one is the detective story regarding LF's bad deeds.

* In AGOT, Ned is beheaded, supposedly Joffrey's idea.

* In ACOK Varys mentions to Tyrion that maybe someone was behind Joffrey's idea to behead Ned, but Tyrion doesn't really understand.

* Lampshading: Later on we see Littlefinger telling Sansa of his "suggesting" to Joffrey that the dwarves on pigs would be great entertainment for his wedding. Which enrages Tyrion and implicates him in Joffrey's murder. This is revealed in a Sansa chapter later in ASOS.

* Then in Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter in ADWD she thinks that immediately after Ned was beheaded, LF begged her for Sansa's hand in marriage, but Cersei chose to refuse him because he was too lowborn.

Connect the dots.....

Great example. This also shines light on what LF's real motives could be. In Sansa's last chapter of AFFC, we hear her stating that LF has told her that young girls are always happier with older men. Seemingly an innocuous observation, but not when we consider his pervy behaviour and Cersei's revelation in ADWD. This is why I don't believe he's sincere about marrying her to Harry to Heir.

**

Another related example is the one given by Dr. Pepper, who talked of how we get a very negative image of Lollys in Tyrion's POV chapters, but in Sansa's POV she's actually humanized and demonstrates mental capacity.

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Another brilliant one is the detective story regarding LF's bad deeds.

* In AGOT, Ned is beheaded, supposedly Joffrey's idea.

* In ACOK Varys mentions to Tyrion that maybe someone was behind Joffrey's idea to behead Ned, but Tyrion doesn't really understand.

* Lampshading: Later on we see Littlefinger telling Sansa of his "suggesting" to Joffrey that the dwarves on pigs would be great entertainment for his wedding. Which enrages Tyrion and implicates him in Joffrey's murder. This is revealed in a Sansa chapter later in ASOS.

* Then in Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter in ADWD she thinks that immediately after Ned was beheaded, LF begged her for Sansa's hand in marriage, but Cersei chose to refuse him because he was too lowborn.

Connect the dots.....

Excellent example of how our views and understanding of characters must be constantly revised. LF is presented as this icky, smarmy, dude with dubious loyalty. We aren't sure of his and motives though it first appears that his loyalty is to the Lannisters. It isn't AFFC that we really start to see that LF's schemes are far more complicated and developed than just merely getting a snazzy title and castle.

Another related example is the one given by Dr. Pepper, who talked of how we get a very negative image of Lollys in Tyrion's POV chapters, but in Sansa's POV she's actually humanized and demonstrates mental capacity.

I'm glad you brought this up as it's an example I had forgotten when I set aside examples for this thread. To further this, the reader must consider which POV or character to trust. We see Sansa interact with Lollys very little, but it's more than we see with other characters. Does that mean Sansa's view is more reliable (I believe this), or does it mean that there is truth in Tyrion's and Cersei's opinion that she's a bovine lackwit? Furthermore, what does it reveal about the characters when they reveal their opinions of others?

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Great example. This also shines light on what LF's real motives could be. In Sansa's last chapter of AFFC, we hear her stating that LF has told her that young girls are always happier with older men. Seemingly an innocuous observation, but not when we consider his pervy behaviour and Cersei's revelation in ADWD. This is why I don't believe he's sincere about marrying her to Harry to Heir.

**

Another related example is the one given by Dr. Pepper, who talked of how we get a very negative image of Lollys in Tyrion's POV chapters, but in Sansa's POV she's actually humanized and demonstrates mental capacity.

I think he may marry her to Harry to get the Vale behind the Falcon and Sansa, but I don't think Harry will live long after that. Once LF has the Vale behind Sansa he doesn't need Harry. He wants her (and possibly all of Westeros) to himself.

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I'm glad you brought this up as it's an example I had forgotten when I set aside examples for this thread. To further this, the reader must consider which POV or character to trust. We see Sansa interact with Lollys very little, but it's more than we see with other characters. Does that mean Sansa's view is more reliable (I believe this), or does it mean that there is truth in Tyrion's and Cersei's opinion that she's a bovine lackwit? Furthermore, what does it reveal about the characters when they reveal their opinions of others?

GRRM says Sansa is an unreliable narrator (he's mentioned this with the fact that she remembers a kiss that didn't happen) and so we know she isn't reliable. She could however be more reliable that is true. Or maybe more reliable with some things less with other (For instance she had more interest in Lollys since she was a girl around her age and her fate could have easily been Sansa's). It's hard to know truthfully. :) But it lends for great possibilities.

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I think he may marry her to Harry to get the Vale behind the Falcon and Sansa, but I don't think Harry will live long after that. Once LF has the Vale behind Sansa he doesn't need Harry. He wants her (and possibly all of Westeros) to himself.

Littlefinger will not get that far tho, due to this. ;)

GRRM says Sansa is an unreliable narrator (he's mentioned this with the fact that she remembers a kiss that didn't happen) and so we know she isn't reliable. She could however be more reliable that is true. Or maybe more reliable with some things less with other (For instance she had more interest in Lollys since she was a girl around her age and her fate could have easily been Sansa's). It's hard to know truthfully. :) But it lends for great possibilities.

"Unreliable narrator" in this case means that she is making up the UnKiss, not that she is normally in some sort of trance. I might add here as well that Cersei had made sure that Sansa was probably pretty drunk at the BotBW night, since she constantly plied her with wine. That could make quite a few people more "unreliable" or at least make the memory a bit "hazy" as it were. Especially if the situation is as extraordinary and highly charged as the one she ended up being in.

We know that as of AFFC, she is in fact very perceptive. Otherwise, she would not be able to figure out LF's schemes. This is not judging by Sansa's own perceptions either, but how on the outside evidence on what she can figure out.

It's a bit like how you need to think while reading Cersei's AFFC chapters, where we can assume she is mostly partly drunk, extremely paranoid and stressed after Joffrey's death, probably very near a breaking point. Which can explain a lot of her erratic behaviour. People tend to just reduce her to "stupid" but that is not taking into account her situation. Nor the fact that she is, as a matter of fact, nearly always drunk. If you have been around drunk people reasoning, you will know what I mean.

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GRRM says Sansa is an unreliable narrator (he's mentioned this with the fact that she remembers a kiss that didn't happen) and so we know she isn't reliable. She could however be more reliable that is true. Or maybe more reliable with some things less with other (For instance she had more interest in Lollys since she was a girl around her age and her fate could have easily been Sansa's). It's hard to know truthfully. :) But it lends for great possibilities.

Yes, we discussed this a lot in the PtP threads :) Sansa does have a reason to identify with Lollys given what you noted about the similar fates. However, when we actually look at the judgements of Tyrion and Cersei, they're essentially shallow and derogatory. We know already the kind of person Cersei is, and Tyrion himself isn't known for seeing into the hearts of women, not to mention he's being courted as a husband for Lollys. In contrast, we've seen that Sansa is able to see the complex sides to men like Sandor and Dontos, who are written off by others. It's that empathy at work that seems to give her greater insight.

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I think he may marry her to Harry to get the Vale behind the Falcon and Sansa, but I don't think Harry will live long after that. Once LF has the Vale behind Sansa he doesn't need Harry. He wants her (and possibly all of Westeros) to himself.

The thing is, I don't think LF can afford to have two boy lords die suspiciously when he's around. Maybe he just wants the challenge of playing out a game where he's the champion and the Brandon Stark type playboy loses this time.

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Another brilliant one is the detective story regarding LF's bad deeds.

* In AGOT, Ned is beheaded, supposedly Joffrey's idea.

* In ACOK Varys mentions to Tyrion that maybe someone was behind Joffrey's idea to behead Ned, but Tyrion doesn't really understand.

* Lampshading: Later on we see Littlefinger telling Sansa of his "suggesting" to Joffrey that the dwarves on pigs would be great entertainment for his wedding. Which enrages Tyrion and implicates him in Joffrey's murder. This is revealed in a Sansa chapter later in ASOS.

* Then in Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter in ADWD she thinks that immediately after Ned was beheaded, LF begged her for Sansa's hand in marriage, but Cersei chose to refuse him because he was too lowborn.

Connect the dots.....

Much of what we know of LF has to be figured out in such a manner. It's the same with who poisoned Joffrey.

* LF is sent off to arrange an alliance between the Tyrells and Lannisters which happens via marriage

*Sansa is given the hairnet by Dontos to wear to the PW

*We see the QoT adjust the hair net prior to the feast.

*LF reveals that he worked with the Tyrells to have Joffrey poisoned

At this point we have to figure out why LF and the QoT would work together and the reason is revealed all the way back in book 2. LF wanted Harrenhal so he would have the needed social rank to marry Lysa and take the Vale. He would not get the reward without the alliance.

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A great topic. Its always important in this style to remember that it is a POV, which may or may not be the "truth".

As one poster noted ( I forget who), we basically see Sandor Clegane through the eyes of two young girls, Sansa and Arya. I made a note that on next reread to pay more attention to other PoVs on the Hound.

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Another brilliant one is the detective story regarding LF's bad deeds.

* In AGOT, Ned is beheaded, supposedly Joffrey's idea.

* In ACOK Varys mentions to Tyrion that maybe someone was behind Joffrey's idea to behead Ned, but Tyrion doesn't really understand.

* Lampshading: Later on we see Littlefinger telling Sansa of his "suggesting" to Joffrey that the dwarves on pigs would be great entertainment for his wedding. Which enrages Tyrion and implicates him in Joffrey's murder. This is revealed in a Sansa chapter later in ASOS.

* Then in Cersei's Walk of Shame chapter in ADWD she thinks that immediately after Ned was beheaded, LF begged her for Sansa's hand in marriage, but Cersei chose to refuse him because he was too lowborn.

Connect the dots.....

Nice thinking, but Lf could not have had anything to do with Cersei's walk of shame. Also getting Harrenhal wasn't LF's idea originally. He got the cue from Tyrion when he offered it to LF as an incentive to win over Lysa to the Lannister cause, when he claimed to want to marry Myrcela to Robert in order to see who would run to tell on him to Cersei.

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Nice thinking, but Lf could not have had anything to do with Cersei's walk of shame. Also getting Harrenhal wasn't LF's idea originally. He got the cue from Tyrion when he offered it to LF as an incentive to win over Lysa to the Lannister cause, when he claimed to want to marry Myrcela to Robert in order to see who would run to tell on him to Cersei.

He didn't have anything to do with the WoS. Cersei remembers LF asking to marry Sansa while she is in the middle of her WoS, that's what Lyanna Stark is referring too.

A great topic. Its always important in this style to remember that it is a POV, which may or may not be the "truth".

As one poster noted ( I forget who), we basically see Sandor Clegane through the eyes of two young girls, Sansa and Arya. I made a note that on next reread to pay more attention to other PoVs on the Hound.

Pay attention to how he comes across in each POV too. He's also in Tyrion and Ned's point of view. In Ned's, he's the most brutal, Tyrion he is more of a servant, in Sansa's he is the most erratic. But you get the closest to who he is as a person in the Sansa and Arya POVs.

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A great topic. Its always important in this style to remember that it is a POV, which may or may not be the "truth".

As one poster noted ( I forget who), we basically see Sandor Clegane through the eyes of two young girls, Sansa and Arya. I made a note that on next reread to pay more attention to other PoVs on the Hound.

Interestingly, this makes people believe he is an alcoholic, since he is almost always drunk in their chapters, but we never see Cersei, Tyrion or Ned remark on him being drunk on the job, for instance.

Makes an interesting comparison to Cersei who is almost always drunk on the job in AFFC and ADWD (minus the time she spends in Hotel la Faith).

He didn't have anything to do with the WoS. Cersei remembers LF asking to marry Sansa while she is in the middle of her WoS, that's what Lyanna Stark is referring too.

Yes, LF was offered Harrenhal well after Ned's beheading and well after when he asked Cersei for Sansa's hand and she turned him down. It is not until Tywin bestows Harrenhal on him that he gets it though, and by that point Tywin knows that Robb is about to be deaded, so realises Sansa's worth to the Lannister cause, meaning LF can't have her.

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A great topic. Its always important in this style to remember that it is a POV, which may or may not be the "truth".

As one poster noted ( I forget who), we basically see Sandor Clegane through the eyes of two young girls, Sansa and Arya. I made a note that on next reread to pay more attention to other PoVs on the Hound.

Yes, and the primary impression we get of him, particularly in Sansa's POV is a man falling apart, frequently drunk and terrifying. However, when it comes to Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei or even Ned's POVs, we see that whilst his ferocity is noted, he's quite reliable on the job, and performs his duties properly. Jaime thinks that he wouldn't be involved in the rape and burning of Saltpans and Cersei valued him as a protector for her sons. This isn't to say that he doesn't come off with positive attributes in Sansa's and Arya's chapters. I think that's where we see his true complexity. Not enough attention is paid IMO to how gently he handles Sansa and the way he behaves selflessly to protect her. Similarly with Arya, he actually tries to give some awkward comfort after Cat's death and keeps her around long after her usefulness had expired. And of course both Sansa and Arya witness the tears! :)

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One of the strangest POV issues was reading Sam in AFFC and Jon in ADWD. They retell us the same events in vastly different manners and that is a big hint I think to take everything any character says with a grain of salt. We don't know the motives of the other characters and just seeing the difference in events that link up so closely is quite shocking. If we put Sam and Jon's chapters side by side we get entire differing views of the events. Sam is upset about being sent away especially to be a maester while Jon is sending him away because he needs Sam in the long run. It also tells us more about their characters, Jon is more far thinking while Sam doesn't look as far to the future. We can also see that Aemon is more like Jon in that he can see how things might stretch years down the road and he understands what Jon does even when Sam doesn't.

We see something different with Brown Ben Plumm. Dany meets him first and says that he has friendly eyes and thinks she can trust him. In Dance, Tyrion also meets BBP and notices that he has very calculating eyes and is someone not to be trusted. So, we are faced with very different views of the same person in different POVs. Yet, based upon BBP's action, we can say that Tyrion was the better judge of character in this case. Dany has spent the series without another POV around her, so this makes us wonder what other observations and judgments about people has Dany gotten wrong.

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