Mance/Jon Or the Effects of Overanalysis

[Fantôme]

So there is a theory that Mance is nice to Jon because he's his dad and another that he is because he has a crush on him. Please don't make a theory combining both.

ETA: And thanks for the explanation.

[RhaenysBee]

So there is a theory that Mance is nice to Jon because he's his dad and another that he is because he has a crush on him. Please don't make a theory combining both.

ETA: And thanks for the explanation.

Fortunately I haven't come across such, so far. I do hope it'll remain that way.

And no problem.

[Ghost714]

Tormond hasn't seen Mance's cock, Tormond just believes his member is at least twice the size of any other man.

I can't believe people are are giving complements for the op, threads like this are why I continue to find my self on these boards less and less, it's literally one ridiculous thread after another these days.

[Fantôme]

What's wrong with funny threads, it helps relieve some of the tension from other discussions people take to seriously. Crackpot pairings are always funny.(except when it's gross. Ramsay/Theon ...).

[Brony Stark]

Tormond hasn't seen Mance's cock, Tormond just believes his member is at least twice the size of any other man.

I can't believe people are are giving complements for the op, threads like this are why I continue to find my self on these boards less and less, it's literally one ridiculous thread after another these days.

It's Winter's Knight, the ruler of crack pairings, making any close friendship a romance (as usual). Also people need to unwind from the other discussions that involve Stannis being the legal heir, Dany's morales, etc.

[Every]

What's wrong with funny threads, it helps relieve some of the tension from other discussions people take to seriously. Crackpot pairings are always funny.(except when it's gross. Ramsay/Theon ...).

Crackpot, what?! This is Srs Bsns! This is the true song of ice and fire! Mance got fake-burned, Jon's kind of icy... and dead. Hey, maybe Mance will hear of his alleged demise and return to enact the final scene of Romeo and Juliet, and just as he stabs himself, Jon will wake up. And then Mance will be Jon's Nissa Nissa. It all fits.

[smok]

Pffft. This topic is full of tragic oversights. I am dissapoint. Why is their first meeting yet not discussed? I know, since Jon was a kid that was busy throwing snow on people and thinking it was funny, nothing could have really happen there, but that does not mean it's not important! First, notice that both of them remember that meeting, Jon especially has the image of "young brother of Night's Watch" in his head (first crush? is this why Jon wanted to join the NW?). Second, during the conversation about the event Mance says "I kept that oath." (about the snow dumping thing). This really sets an interesting theme for the relationship "I may be an oathbreaker, but I keep the oaths to you ".

Also, aDWD.

[grindylow]

Pffft. This topic is full of tragic oversights. I am dissapoint. Why is their first meeting yet not discussed? I know, since Jon was a kid that was busy throwing snow on people and thinking it was funny, nothing could have really happen there, but that does not mean it's not important! First, notice that both of them remember that meeting, Jon especially has the image of "young brother of Night's Watch" in his head (first crush? is this why Jon wanted to join the NW?). Second, during the conversation about the event Mance says "I kept that oath." (about the snow dumping thing). This really sets an interesting theme for the relationship "I may be an oathbreaker, but I keep the oaths to you ".

Also, aDWD.

IKR??? Jon's Mance-worship throughout aDWD is something else, and the Pink Letter and Jon's reaction to it are just the shippiest things. I don't have your sister, says the letter. Stannis is dead. His army is dead. The spearwives are dead. All I got is Mance. If you want Mance Rayder, come get him. OK WE RIDE TONIGHT, says Jon Snow.

[three-eyed monkey]

Mance want's to be free, right? And what better way of escaping the "bigger is better" stereotype than swapping Tomance for Jomance.

[smok]

Dolorous Jen, I'm really happy to see a fellow shipper making such good points. The ending of aDWD is really the icing on the cake.

Another scene from aDWD that needs more discussing is the yard practise one. Remember how Ygritte told Jon that he has stolen her, because he could have killed her and didn't, so according to Wildings' standard they are practically married? Now, reread the yard scene knowning the RT is Mance and the he has a dagger he refrains from using.

I rest my case :cool4: .

[grindylow]

Dolorous Jen, I'm really happy to see a fellow shipper making such good points. The ending of aDWD is really the icing on the cake.

Another scene from aDWD that needs more discussing is the yard practise one. Remember how Ygritte told Jon that he has stolen her, because he could have killed her and didn't, so according to Wildings' standard they are practically married? Now, reread the yard scene knowning the RT is Mance and the he has a dagger he refrains from using.

I rest my case :cool4: .

Aahahaah, I hadn't even looked at it like that before. Convinced!!! “I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.” Romantic! :love: Mance knows how they do these things down South, but this one's gonna go down his way.

In another thread, I quoted Jon watching "Mance" in the cage waiting to be burned - all alone, without even his special cloak. No wonder the wall was weeping. I was so happy to find this thread because this. is. my. ship. But if the argument is that Mance loves Jon perhaps without reciprocation, well, that's nothing to worry about. aDWD is simply a Jon-loves-Mance pageant. It is crazy reciprocated.

[Winter's Knight]

Aahahaah, I hadn't even looked at it like that before. Convinced!!! “I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.” Romantic! :love: Mance knows how they do these things down South, but this one's gonna go down his way.

Remember that in Westorosi weddings, the groom drapes his cloak over the bride's shoulders-is Mance saying that he refuses to be dominated, that he is not willing to sacrifice his individuality?

Songs have been a metaphor for sex throughout the books-Sandor demands a song from Sansa, Marillion offers to honour Cat with a song which offend Roderik, Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar's song.

[Sphinx The Riddle]

iv read some doozies.. this one takes it

[smok]

Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.” Romantic! :love: Mance knows how they do these things down South, but this one's gonna go down his way.

Now that's an interesting spin! I've always assumed the cloak line referred to the black-and-red clock and is a hint who really RT is, but it makes this way too! I haven't caught that one, thanks!

I hear you on the whole life-pleading motive. It was a wonderful shippy thing. The "Jon-figures-Mance-is-not-dead" scene also reads nicely, in a quiet shiipy sense.

Plus, assuming Jon is the King of Westeros (blablabla) and Mance is the King-Beyond-The-Wall, they rule the whole continent together. Dany can stay in Essos.

[grindylow]

Remember that in Westorosi weddings, the groom drapes his cloak over the bride's shoulders-is Mance saying that he refuses to be dominated, that he is not willing to sacrifice his individuality?

Songs have been a metaphor for sex throughout the books-Sandor demands a song from Sansa, Marillion offers to honour Cat with a song which offend Roderik, Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar's song.

I don't think Mance is willing to sacrifice his individuality for Jon (or anyone).

I'm half joking, half serious in here - it's possible to read anything and invest it with too much meaning. But reading aDWD particularly triggered all sorts of alarms with me - Jon pleading for Mance's life. Jon saving Mance from the pain of burning. Jon telling Rattleshirt that they burned the wrong man, before I knew Rattleshirt was Mance, struck me as strange - not that Jon wouldn't prefer Rattleshirt burned to Mance, but that Jon immediately went there in his head, and then said it. Jon, when the switch is revealed, immediately signing on to the plan. Melisandre saying to Jon, this man is my gift to you. Jon gets a letter which tells him that Ramsay has nothing for him but Mance and death, and Jon goes. And reading back, after learning about the switch - smok's comment about the practice yard fight. (edit! Stannis saying to Jon, this man is my gift to you. ??!!?? He's told this twice?? Really??) Mance-as-Rattleshirt's pledge to Jon - the pledge itself surprised me when I thought it was Rattleshirt. It makes think, Oh! when I know that it's Mance. The part about the cloak made me laugh. The part about the pretty song raised my eyebrows, for the reasons you said.

Realistically, I don't think GRRM is headed that direction with all this - we have Ygritte, we have Dalla, they're both dead but they establish a precedent, we have oaths and we have Val - but their interactions do fail my "what if one were a woman?" test. And I think that's because GRRM is trying to build a stronger, emotionally complex relationship between them. Not just, Mance hates Jon because he betrayed him! or, Jon thinks Mance is a pretty cool dude! But the way GRRM's going about it trips all my wires. He's laid out this meal for me and by gosh I am going to eat it.

[grindylow]

(edit - okay I don't even know what happened here)

[Winter's Knight]

I don't think Mance is willing to sacrifice his individuality for Jon (or anyone).

I'm half joking, half serious in here - it's possible to read anything and invest it with too much meaning. But reading aDWD particularly triggered all sorts of alarms with me - Jon pleading for Mance's life. Jon saving Mance from the pain of burning. Jon telling Rattleshirt that they burned the wrong man, before I knew Rattleshirt was Mance, struck me as strange - not that Jon wouldn't prefer Rattleshirt burned to Mance, but that Jon immediately went there in his head, and then said it. Jon, when the switch is revealed, immediately signing on to the plan. Melisandre saying to Jon, this man is my gift to you. Jon gets a letter which tells him that Ramsay has nothing for him but Mance and death, and Jon goes. And reading back, after learning about the switch - smok's comment about the practice yard fight. Mance-as-Rattleshirt's pledge to Jon - the pledge itself surprised me when I thought it was Rattleshirt. It makes think, Oh! when I know that it's Mance. The part about the cloak made me laugh. The part about the pretty song raised my eyebrows, for the reasons you said.

Realistically, I don't think GRRM is headed that direction with all this - we have Ygritte, we have Dalla, they're both dead but they establish a precedent, we have oaths and we have Val - but their interactions do fail my "what if one were a woman?" test. And I think that's because GRRM is trying to build a stronger, emotionally complex relationship between them. Not just, Mance hates Jon because he betrayed him! or, Jon thinks Mance is a pretty cool dude! But the way GRRM's going about it trips all my wires. He's laid out this meal for me and by gosh I am going to eat it.

Ahh, the good ol' "What if one was a woman" test. :drunk:

"This man is my gift to you"<-sends shivers down my spine that does.

You're right of course that while Martin really isn't the type to write queer relationships, he certainly has spent quite a bit of time in building Jomance.

[grindylow]

Ahh, the good ol' "What if one was a woman" test. :drunk:

"This man is my gift to you"<-sends shivers down my spine that does.

You're right of course that while Martin really isn't the type to write queer relationships, he certainly has spent quite a bit of time in building Jomance.

You replied while I was getting my butt kicked by the editing function :blushing: He's told that twice. Seriously!!

[Winter's Knight]

You replied while I was getting my butt kicked by the editing function :blushing: He's told that twice. Seriously!!

This sums up my feelings.

[Eyron]

Winter's Knight, it's time to make this official. You need Jomance in your sig. *nods in approval*

...And you can remove Jonaerys... :leaving: