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Apple Martini

Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology

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And, I suppose, the very obvious allusions to the assassination of Julius Caesar. No resurrection there, but it might indicate what will become of the Watch afterwards - the ostracisation and eventual punishment of Marsh and others, the dissolving of the Watch into factions and perhaps the formation or strengthening of the institution under a new (perhaps temporary) leadership of an Octavian Caesar. Until, one hopes, Jon returns.

the Ragnarok scenario is most reminiscent in the whole asoiaf arc, especially with the introduction of Bloodraven, the zombie end of days etc.. Love the reference of Val = Valkryies in your analysis. Read that and mouth went :o

Great post. Need to chew over it more before a more formulated response.

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The Corn King ;Celtic ; sacrificed in winter in order to usher in spring.

what's sleazy and hot about this is it dovetails with the other little scraps of prophecy we've got.

We've got the knowing crow proclaiming him, and that vision about someone sleeping in ice inside the wall like a blue flower (which is already linked to JonJon i believe).

So that would mean the corn king sleeps for a bit and then awakens when it's time to blossom and usher in the change of seasons.

And I like Jon being the source of all corn for the kingdom somehow. That's the kind of thing that can get you named king. (Without his true heritage EVER coming out, even!)

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what's sleazy and hot about this is it dovetails with the other little scraps of prophecy we've got.

We've got the knowing crow proclaiming him, and that vision about someone sleeping in ice inside the wall like a blue flower (which is already linked to JonJon i believe).

So that would mean the corn king sleeps for a bit and then awakens when it's time for the change of seasons to be ushered in.

And I like Jon being the source of all corn. That's the kind of thing that can get you named king. (Without his true heritage EVER coming out, even!)

Might the blue rose bear some similarity to a cornflower?

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What a great post, Apple Martini!

With regards to Norse mythology, the beginning of Ragnarök is pretty significant, too: it starts when the sun god Baldr is killed by his brother Höthr. Apparently, Baldr will be reborn in the spring; but he's dead for the entirety of Ragnarök. Until recently, I thought Bran was the most probably candidate for Baldr, since his direwolf is called Summer, and he's accompanied by Hodor. But the parallel of Baldr being killed by is brother (even if accidentally) and Jon being killed by his brothers is also something to keep in mind.

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Great post, very interesting. One thing to think about though is how often Martin subverts or plays straight tropes common in mythology or fantasy. In fact, I'd say that's what makes this such a genius piece of work and one that basically deconstructs the entire genres.

There are just countless examples where Martin sets up a trope that we have seen played out time and time again only to completely topple it with a hefty dose of realism. I think the only real solid evidence anyone would have of Jon surviving is that we have seen character in Martin's work​ "resurrected" before (i.e. readers were simply led to believe they were dead when they weren't).

All in all, it's hard to look at past tropes to predict where Martin will go. In fact, I would say these tropes might rather indicate where he won't go.

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Fun additional anecdote. In Zoroastrian eschatology bodily resurrection of individuals (then followed by all of humanity) signals the start of the last battle between Ahura Mazda (and his followers\heroes) against the forces of Angra Mainyu.

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Fun additional anecdote. In Zoroastrian eschatology bodily resurrection of individuals (then followed by all of humanity) signals the start of the last battle between Ahura Mazda (and his followers\heroes) against the forces of Angra Mainyu.

Cool! :D

Yeah, my background is mainly in Greek mythology (I'm ashamed it took me that long to tie Bowen to his pomegranate nickname, eesh) and Christian mythology, with Norse mythology coming further down the list. So any additional insight about other mythologies is very welcome.

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Cool! :D

Yeah, my background is mainly in Greek mythology (I'm ashamed it took me that long to tie Bowen to his pomegranate nickname, eesh) and Christian mythology, with Norse mythology coming further down the list. So any additional insight about other mythologies is very welcome.

Yes, the pomegrenade connection is really quite stunning; and I had quite a "d'oh!" moment when I read your thoughts about it, simply because I couldn't believe I didn't get that one before.

Again a tidbit about Ragnarök: There's the leader of the fire giants, Surtr, who wields a flaming sword (Azor Ahai, anyone?). The ultimate destruction of the world arrives with these fire giants, who proceed to kill almost all the gods. I find it really interesting that while Ragnarok is associated with Winter, the actual destruction is brought forth by fire.

Edit: spelling

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And, I suppose, the very obvious allusions to the assassination of Julius Caesar. No resurrection there, but it might indicate what will become of the Watch afterwards - the ostracisation and eventual punishment of Marsh and others, the dissolving of the Watch into factions and perhaps the formation or strengthening of the institution under a new (perhaps temporary) leadership of an Octavian Caesar. Until, one hopes, Jon returns.

Will Dolorous Edd "Cry havoc! and unleash the dogs of war"?

As usual AM, your non-Dany based posts are sound of fact and logical.

This is what a cornflower looks like as opposed to a blue rose.

Wiki tells me that blue roses symbolise royal blood, In Chinese folklore, they symbolise hope in the face of unattainable love. Due to the absence in nature of blue roses they have come to symbolise mystery and longing to attain the impossible with some cultures go so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his wishes granted.

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All in all, it's hard to look at past tropes to predict where Martin will go. In fact, I would say these tropes might rather indicate where he won't go.

I see him going as far as mimicking the resurrection stuff...after that, who knows

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ETA: And yes this assumes that Jon is probably the ultimate hero or one of the ultimate heroes, so if you're on the Dany-is-it train, I doubt you'll find much here that you'll like.

Actually, I think Dany's wandering through the Waste might be a kind of "Last Temptation," and in her case, it seems like she may have given in.

This is a very old trope, so named for the Biblical story of Jonah. According to Joseph Campbell, this development marks a turning point for the hero, who is sent into the "unknown." It can correspond to death and entering the Underworld. Typically, the hero will face something in the abyss and return with a boon — literal or figurative — necessary to complete his overall mission. It is also what causes the hero to accept the inevitability of his overall mission — the "event horizon," "crossing the Rubicon" portion of his quest. There is no going back.

I'm dying to know what boon the CotF gave to the Last Hero-- it is clear that this "gift" is what enabled the Battle of the Dawn. I think it makes the most sense in terms of how the story has progressed for Val and Tormund to abscond with Jon in attaining this "boon"-- perhaps finding himself with Bran or the CotF in some way? (I am operating from the idea that there is far more to Val than meets the eye, and is a kind of Valkyrie as you suggest). I definitely do not think that Melisandre's "resurrection" makes much sense from the subtext, and I truly don't see her fire magic yielding a "boon" that would be useful for what Jon must do. I think this reading makes far more sense. And anyway, I don't think he's mortally wounded- I sense that his "rebirth" will be of a figurative nature-- perhaps finding out about R+L, or going rogue with the Wildlings or something like that.

Who is the pomegranate in our story? Bowen Marsh.

As though we need more proof of Bowen's culpability :cool4:

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As usual AM, your non-Dany based posts are sound of fact and logical.

My Dany-based posts are sound of fact and logical, too. But thanks. :P

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Cool! :D

Yeah, my background is mainly in Greek mythology (I'm ashamed it took me that long to tie Bowen to his pomegranate nickname, eesh) and Christian mythology, with Norse mythology coming further down the list. So any additional insight about other mythologies is very welcome.

I'm writing a whole big post related to Zoroastrian myth, theology, and eschatology as related to the Red Lot, prophecy, and eschatology. It seems to be one area not covered quite as much on this board (there truly is no new theory under the sun). My field is Near-Eastern Studies so this is right up my alley. I'm loving this stuff because I'm not near as familiar with Celtic and Norse mythology as I should be!

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My favourite would be the Corn king. If only for Mormont's raven. That rascal knows something.

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Fun additional anecdote. In Zoroastrian eschatology bodily resurrection of individuals (then followed by all of humanity) signals the start of the last battle between Ahura Mazda (and his followers\heroes) against the forces of Angra Mainyu.

The dualist belief of the R'hlloristas is also similar to zoroastrianism.

I feel the direct connection of the Jon story into myth is weakest with the Norse and strongest with the Corn King/Christian comparisons what's interesting is that the latter two are different from the two in-story examples of resurrection the wights and the undead servants of R'hllor. By contrast the corn king and Christian allusions tie us back to the annual cycle of death and renewal which is the backdrop to ASOIAF.

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@Dreadfort: I'm really more about European (mainly Norse and Greek) mythology and some Christian mythology, but I always felt that R'hllorism was very close to Zoroastrianism, from the little I know (basically, mainly the dualism and the focus on fire and water/ice). So I'm really looking forward to your thoughts about that connection.

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And, I suppose, the very obvious allusions to the assassination of Julius Caesar. No resurrection there...

Although didn't officially Caesar become a God after his death?

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The dualist belief of the R'hlloristas is also similar to zoroastrianism.

I feel the direct connection of the Jon story into myth is weakest with the Norse and strongest with the Corn King/Christian comparisons what's interesting is that the latter two are different from the two in-story examples of resurrection the wights and the undead servants of R'hllor. By contrast the corn king and Christian allusions tie us back to the annual cycle of death and renewal which is the backdrop to ASOIAF.

Yeah Martin based a fair bit of R'hllorian faith etc on Zoroastrianism (that's a whole other discussion).

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