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Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology


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@Dreadfort: I'm really more about European (mainly Norse and Greek) mythology and some Christian mythology, but I always felt that R'hllorism was very close to Zoroastrianism, from the little I know (basically, mainly the dualism and the focus on fire and water/ice). So I'm really looking forward to your thoughts about that connection.

It is very close in regards to the dualism. Ahura Mazda (the creator) symbolizes order, truth, and light. Angra Mainyu symbolizes: chaos, "the lie," darkness. In later Zoroastrian literature we've got the view that Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu were twins that got separated at birth. Fire is the most important purifying agent (water and butter being two others) and symbol for Zoroastrians. There is also a heavy connection made by the Greeks and Jews between Zoroastrianism and magic. Zoroastrian priests were actually called "Magi." I'm amused by the parallel with the "Three-heads of the Dragon" and the Zoroastrian belief that three heroes (more depending on which text you're reading) will help overthrow the forces of "Darkness and Chaos."

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Could the Corn King be Jeor Mormont instead? He is as closely tied to the raven as Jon is, and we know he wants his son Jorah to succeed him in the Watch. Since I don't see the joining of the watch as big in his life goals, at least until after the war with the Others is over, he wouldn't be commanding the Watch until spring. Just an alternative, I think it could point to Jon or the Mormonts. Great post btw.

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Although didn't officially Caesar become a God after his death?

Yep. Divus Iulius.

Apotheosis is another stage of the hero's journey, after he returns with the boon and uses it to redeem his world. So hold on, the god thing is coming!

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Which raises the question what God will Jon become? An avatar of R'hllor? One of the Old or Cold Gods? Something different and unseen before?

And that doesn't even begin to answer the question if he is going to be a benevolent god... or something else entirely? If we go back to Norse mythology, Azor Ahai might well be Westeros' version of the Antichrist, not of the messiah.

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Hmmm, I am hesitant to jump in but will. GRRM has never "resurrected" a character in aSoIaF. He has "resuscitated" a few. There is a big difference. In Christian theology Lazarus was resuscitated after three days in the tomb, Jesus resurrected and rose from the dead on the third day. Uncat, Dondarrian are resuscitated which means the dead and corrupted body, rotting already, is brought back to a form of life (Lazarus was rotting and stank badly). There is no character in aSoIaF that I can see that has been resurrected. Resurrection implies a dying and rising where the true nature of the resurrected (as in Jesus Christ) is revealed to an unknowing world.

So we have not seen one yet, but the Jon Snow story is prime to become one. He could "die" and rise as the Targaryan/Stark prince that he is, his true nature revealed in some way only GRRM knows. I just wanted to clarify that there is a big difference between resuscitation and resurrection, so using the term resurrection loosely is inaccurate in my opinion.

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I love this! It is amazing! Good work!

You've reminded me of something too. There are in several religions ultimate creation myths about making order out of chaos, where chaos is usually represented by a dragon. And once the hero/god defeats the dragon/chaos he creates order and can then create the world. It's basically a pre-creation myth. There is one in the Judeo-Christian tradition and I am kicking myself because it's been so long since I've taken my comparative religion classes. But the same similar myth is in several different religions, which is why I remember this discussion (because the same story is present in religions that shouldn't have had the contact to share the story). I am going to have to go back to my books and see if I can find one. But now that you mention the mythology, I am seeing connections with the seasons in chaos and dragons on the loose and wondering if we will need a hero to destroy the dragons and restore order to the seasons. I need to find the actual stories to see if they tie in anywhere. Depending on the actual version I think there was death/rebirth of the hero as well.

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Wow, never picked up on the obvious pomegranate allusion. Great post AM!

Val + Tormund connect very nicely with that thread about them being intermediaries to the Old Gods. Very Norse-ish (Weirwood=World Tree/Yggdrasil)

I have to believe there's more to Val than meets the eye as well. Taking a half-blind horse through the haunted forest in winter with Others all around and somehow finding Tormund and managing to survive= not normal.

One last thing- I highly doubt Jon is going to get "Rhllored" or given the kiss of life. How many times can Jon make it clear that he's an Old God type of guy? He'll either just flat-out survive or be "Bran-ned" in my opinion.

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As for Greek Mythology, I think ASOIAF is closer to Homer and his Iliad and Odysseus... A few thoughts:

- Achilles and Patroclus = Renly and Loras?

- Melissandre = Cassandre?

- Ulysses = Tyrion?

- Agamemnon = Stannis (the eventual winner?)

- Lyanna + Raeghar = Helen + Paris?

- Robert = Menelas?

- Eddard = Hector?

- Cersei = Cirsei?

etc

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And that doesn't even begin to answer the question if he is going to be a benevolent god... or something else entirely? If we go back to Norse mythology, Azor Ahai might well be Westeros' version of the Antichrist, not of the messiah.

Which ties into what some of us have speculated before, that Azor Ahai is maybe not good.

Also, are the Others the "anti-christ" figure here? Is what Jon will eventually fight one thing or many things or even a single person?

English not being my mother tongue I don't get the pomegranate / Bowen Marsh link?

Bowen's nickname is the Old Pomegranate, in-story.

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This is a very old trope, so named for the Biblical story of Jonah. According to Joseph Campbell, this development marks a turning point for the hero, who is sent into the "unknown." It can correspond to death and entering the Underworld. Typically, the hero will face something in the abyss and return with a boon — literal or figurative — necessary to complete his overall mission. It is also what causes the hero to accept the inevitability of his overall mission — the "event horizon," "crossing the Rubicon" portion of his quest. There is no going back.

I am not sure about the inevitability of the mission, as much as "the hero" accepting said mission in the first place. In the introduction of the story, "the Lord" commands Jonah to go to Nineveh. That is the capital of the Neo Assyrian Empire, in the vicinity of modern Mosul, Iraq. Jonah has no intention of accepting this mission. He flees towards Joppa (Jaffa) in modern Israel. From there he boards a ship heading for the city of "Tarshish". Which, depending on the interpretation, is either Tarsisi/Tarsus in Cilicia (modern Mersin, Turkey) or Tartessos/Tartessus (in modern Andalusia, Spain). The guy is fleeing.

The fish, whale, whatever, is "the Lord"'s way of bullying Jonah into accepting the mission. Jonah is unique as the prophet who hates this mission, and continues to have arguments with his deity throught the narrative of his book.

Do you think Jon is resisting a mission?

Much emphasis is put on seasonal shifts in ASOIAF. The seasons are out of joint, they aren't even, they can be overly harsh. There is a story in Greek myth wherein Hades, the god of the underworld, steals Persephone, the daughter of the harvest goddess Demeter. Demeter, anguished over losing her daughter, causes an unending winter. The other gods encourage Hades to give Persephone back, and he agrees. But not before she has eaten the seeds of a pomegranate in the underworld. Because of this, she must stay in the underworld for one month of every year for each seed she ate. The time that she spends in the underworld is winter (because of Demeter's sadness), and her return marks spring. In this way, the pomegranate is tied to unwilling entry into the underworld and the prevention of spring and catharsis.

Who is the pomegranate in our story? Bowen Marsh.

The Homeric Hymn to Demeter (7-6th century BC) implies that accepting any food offered by Hades would have the same effect. The pomegranate itself might not have special significance. See: http://www.theoi.com...ersephone1.html

"But he on his part secretly gave her sweet pomegranate seed to eat, taking care for himself that she might not remain continually with grave, dark-robed Demeter. ... But while Demeter was still holding her dear child in her arms, her heart suddenly misgave her for some snare, so that she feared greatly and ceased fondling her daughter and asked of her at once : `My child, tell me, surely you have not tasted any food while you were below? Speak out and hide nothing, but let us both know. For if you have not, you shall come back from loathly Aidao [Hades] and live with me and your father, [Zeus] the dark-clouded Son of Kronos and be honoured by all the deathless gods; but if you have tasted food, you must go back again beneath the secret places of the earth"

It is essentially a poisoned gift. Whoever accepts it is bound to the Underworld.

Do you think Jon has been irrevocably been bound to a person, object, or cause?

name='Apple Martini' timestamp='1343326664' post='3436902']The Corn King

This is a figure in Celtic mythology who must be sacrificed in winter in order to usher in spring. When spring arrives, he is resurrected in turn. It's a pretty straightforward allusion, made more so in that Mormont's warged raven repeatedly caws "king" and "corn" to Jon in varying combinations and at various times. In this sense, Jon is the Corn King who must be sacrificed in order to bring spring, and who will eventually be resurrected.

In some interpretetions, the Corn King is another aspect of the deity Lugh, the "fierce striker". There have been several interpretations of his name, such as that he was a solar deity, or a storm god. The name itself might derive from a Celtic term for binding oaths and contracts. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh

He was supposed to be a deity of mixed origins. His father a Tuatha De Danann (People of the goddess Danu), his mother a Fomorian. He was fostered with the Fir Bolg.He managed to join the Tuatha De Danann by offering his services as a wright, a smith, a champion, a swordsman, a harpist, a hero, a poet and historian, a sorcerer, and a craftsman. His legend has him leading them into the Second Battle of Mag Tuireadh. He personally killed his maternal grandfather Balor of the Evil Eye. He also Bres alive. Bres bought his life by teaching the Tuatha De Danann proper methods of agriculture. Lugh eventually poisoned Bres.

Lugh himself ruled Ireland for forty years. He payed with his life for killing Cermait, after the guy slept with one of his wives. Cermait's brothers avengerd him by drowning Lugh in a lake. His most famous weapon was his spear. He is probably a version of Gaulish deity Lugus, also depicted as a spearman. The raven was one of Lugus' symbols.

Where this ties into resurrection is what happens when warriors die. The Valkyries (perhaps represented in our own story by Val and the spearwives in general) select fallen warriors to enter the shield hall of Valhalla. They are associated with ravens and horses specifically. Once there, the fallen warriors drink mead and prepare to fight in Ragnorak. The implication is that these fallen warriors will rise again for Ragnorak. In ADWD, the red priests in Volantis describe people who die in Azor Ahai's service as rising from death. Is this a PR move (Melisandre, for instance, doesn't speak of such a thing), or is it something we'll see actually happen with fallen warriors when Ragnorak (the ultimate battle) begins?

The warriors of Valhalla are specifically called Einherjar (lone warriors). They are destined to fight and fall for the final time in Ragnarok. They are specifically warriors who have fallen in battle, so presumably chosen for courage.

Men who died of sickness or of old age were sent to Niflheim, joining the goddess Hel.

Do you think Jon qualifies as a "lone warrior"?

Standing above the hall of Valhalla are a stag and a goat. The stag's horns release water that forms rivers, while the goat produces the mead on which the fallen soldiers feast. What these might symbolize, if anything, I'm not sure, apart from the obvious stag allusion to Stannis or another Baratheon.

The stag is Eikthyrnir (oak-thorny), the goat Heithrún (Bright Rune, Bright Mystery). Both feed on the tree Lærad. Eikthyrnir is associated with "thunderclouds" and "raging firestorm" sby some modern interpretations. See: http://books.google....thyrnir&f=false

The image of the goat could be associated with the Black Goat of Qohor.

Certain Christian denominations also believe in an eventual literal Armageddon, a Christian variation of Ragnorak. This is, basically, the final battle between Christ and his followers and the forces of Satan. While I doubt that the final showdown in ASOIAF is that clean cut (Jesus good, Satan bad), it does align nicely with Ragnorak. There is also a belief that the souls of dead Christians will rise again (like the fallen soldiers of Valhalla) and participate in the final battle against evil, so again, this ties into the scattered phrases about the resurrection of followers we've seen.

These denomination seem to take a brief reference in the "Apocalypse of John" and turn it to an epic.

"12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."

The kings mentioned seem to gather, but their purpose is unclear. One interpretation is that they actually "gather" in a battlefield, preparing to fight against each other. See: http://books.google....redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ar

The inspiration would be the historical Battle of Megiddo (609 BC), where Necho II,Pharaoh of Egypt faced Josiah, King of Judah. Josiah, one of the great monotheist reformers of the Bible, thought he had God on his side. He was killed by the Egyptian archers, his defeated army suffering high casualties. This is considered the beginning of the end for the Kingdom of Judah, which survived him by 23 years.

The Battle is lamented in Jewish religious texts, Josiah often described as a hero or a messiah. His actions elsewhere paint his a religious fanatic. "Josiah had living pagan priests executed and even had the bones of the dead priests of Bethel exhumed from their graves and burned on their altars, which was viewed as an extreme act of desecration."

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Do you think Jon is resisting a mission?

I think Jon is resisting embracing his skinchanging ability, which could prove crucial down the line. I've also read and somewhat appreciate the theory that Bloodraven and/or Bran engineered the attack to force Jon into a "trauma" that would awaken his abilities, the way Bran's coma did for him.

The Homeric Hymn to Demeter (7-6th century BC) implies that accepting any food offered by Hades would have the same effect. The pomegranate itself might not have special significance. See: http://www.theoi.com...ersephone1.html

But it wasn't "any food." It was a pomegranate. The significance of the pomegranate is only because that's what Persephone ate. If she'd eaten a loaf of bread, that's what we'd be talking about. But she didn't, so we aren't.

Do you think Jon has been irrevocably been bound to a person, object, or cause?

Is this not what the Night's Watch is?

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