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Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology


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And as Butterbumps said, she seems to have given in to her temptation — allowing herself to begin a full-blown fire-and-blood mission, relying on a hallucination of her dead brother and embracing her inner monster.

Mission of vengeance+equivalent of nuclear weapons=not ending well.

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This thread makes me think that maybe one of the reasons I love these books so much is they tap into the "power of myth" that has really shaped me - without my being aware of it!

I have to think about that one. I never thought about the parallels to the Christ story before.....the temptations, the rejection by their own but acceptance by outsiders, the desert experience.....hmmm..I knew I liked Jon Snow for some reason.

So what would their "Transfiguration" moments be? Dany with her turn toward fire and blood. Perhaps Jon with the "Kill the boy and let the man be born."

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Excellent post.

I am interested to see how the Jon return plays out. I am hoping it is a coma/haluncination where he gets the "boon" in the form of an epiphany or revelation rather then an actual resurection/warging.

GRRM has mentioned before how he did not like the resurection of Gandalf. Stating that there was no consequence to Gandlaf's journey and he came back more powerful. Seeing how he handled both Lord Beric and Lady Stoneheart I am wondering how he is going to keep Jon alive without reversing field, the only way I can think is his trip to "death" is not as truly "death" but a coma like state.

I will say part of me was still thinking Jon was dead, but this post convinced me he is coming back.

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No offense but I can't fathom how anyone actually thought he was dead, barring the usual, "Wah I don't like Jon Snow and hope he's dead wah" background noise.

I think Martin's "Tolkien never should have brought Gandalf back" comment plays into this, though I suspect the majority of posts reflect your supposition.

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@ Apple Martini The belief he was dead is simply because Jon was becoming very focal and it would be taking the rug out from under the reader along the lines of Ned and Robb. It sends the story on its ear. In addition Martin's comments on Gandalf made me think that it was a possiblilty.

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Do we know to whom tPtwP was promised? It's a Valyrian myth/prophecy right? So from the East, not to the people of Westeros? There is just something about the way the AA story says AAR is going to "wake the dragon" that really makes me think Jon (if he is AAR) is going to have to battle the Others and the Dragons to restore order to Westeros. But who knows. It just seems like it would fit with the dragon myths.

Yes, Babylon was one of the places the myth was from. I remember specifically comparing it to the Babylonian myth of Enuma Elish (though I had forgotten the name). I am going to look for my book to see if I can find the other myths.

ETA: one of the ones I was thinking of was an Indian myth where there is a snake that supports the world. Basically holding it in his mouth... if he shakes his head violently, it would shake the world to pieces. Vitra (this serpent) had confiscated the water hiding it in the mountains. Indra comes upon him while sleeping and decapitates him with lightening and uses a peg from the Khadira tree to keep the Serpents head in place (and to stabilize the world)

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Do we know to whom tPtwP was promised? It's a Valyrian myth/prophecy right? So from the East, not to the people of Westeros? There is just something about the way the AA story says AAR is going to "wake the dragon" that really makes me think Jon (if he is AAR) is going to have to battle the Others and the Dragons to restore order to Westeros. But who knows. It just seems like it would fit with the dragon myths.

Yes, Babylon was one of the places the myth was from. I remember specifically comparing it to the Babylonian myth of Enuma Elish (though I had forgotten the name). I am going to look for my book to see if I can find the other myths.

On the issue of the PtwP, we know it from the Woods Witch's assertion that he/ she would be born to the line of Aerys/ Rhaella, which is why their grandfather arranged their marriage in the first place. Mel does speaks of AAR and the PtwP as though they are the same person, but it is perhaps not 100% certain that the two prophesies are connected-- we don't know, for example, if the Woods Witch who gave the prophesy was a follower of the Red God and meant AAR, or if this was speaking of someone else.

I'm fairly skeptical of AA being related to the Long Night/ Battle for the Dawn in general though. I think AA is a mistranslation of the Last Hero, and came to resemble another figure entirely in its Eastern iteration-- AA is an agent of fire, so it does not make sense to me that he would be the restorer of balance, who would conceivably represent neither or both elemental sides (and the tale of the Last Hero speaks to this elemental neutrality- there's no mention of fire other than "dragonsteel" and "dragonglass," which is frozen fire being used to fight the Others, but rather relied on "help" from the CotF).

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@ Apple Martini The belief he was dead is simply because Jon was becoming very focal and it would be taking the rug out from under the reader along the lines of Ned and Robb. It sends the story on its ear. In addition Martin's comments on Gandalf made me think that it was a possiblilty.

I can see this, but it also assumes that GRRM kills off characters simply for shock value, and I think that's selling him short. It may have been shocking to kill off Ned and Robb, but both of their narratives had gone as far as they could go, whereas Jon's has not. He hasn't even learned who his parents really were!

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I can see this, but it also assumes that GRRM kills off characters simply for shock value, and I think that's selling him short. It may have been shocking to kill off Ned and Robb, but both of their narratives had gone as far as they could go, whereas Jon's has not. He hasn't even learned who his parents really were!

So true. Atonement (at-one-ment) with the father is another step of the journey, where the hero reconciles with his father. This is why I do believe he will find out his true identitiy.

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So what would their "Transfiguration" moments be? Dany with her turn toward fire and blood. Perhaps Jon with the "Kill the boy and let the man be born."

I don't think Jon has had his yet, but I think we will get it in the next book (Winds of Winter). I am not sure about Dany...to me Transfiguration is not just about a change in the person but others seeing the person differently and understanding their power and distinct place in the divine plan...

The earlier part of the thread where someone mentions Jon going down into the Stark crypt or maybe the dead Starks coming to life again is an interesting thought. What if Lyanna came back to life and told Jon who he was? That would be an interesting twist.

That is another parallel in the Jon Snow story to Christian myth - uncertainty about who his real parents are...confusion about origins. Thinking one thing and finding out another....

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okay, I've realized why this "rebirth" has brought the creation myths to my mind. I'm thinking of the link not to the myth itself but the right of passage/ritual that is tied to it. Which is the Babylonian "new year" ceremony called akitu that took place in the month of Nisan. But during the ceremonies the sovereign (the king or the human representation of divinity on earth) had a heavy part. The first part of the ceremony involved crowning a "carnival" king and the "humiliation" of the real king, an overturning of social order for a time... a plunge into chaos so that the world might be regenerated. The next part was reinacting out the creation myth with the struggle between Marduk and Tiamat the great battle to restore order from chaos. And then last as a realization of the "rebirth" of world and man.

The story of creation is often heavily tied into the ritual for the rebirth of the new year which symbolizes the triumph of life over death. So if we look at Jon as "king" (leader of the NW) and his death as plunging the Wall into chaos, It would be his re-birth or regeneration that could restore order to the chaotic forces up at the Wall. It's generally seen as a victory over death. If we look at the practice of the rituals for the New Year (where most of these myths are referring to) you see death>creation>rebirth. So perhaps it is in his rebirth that Jon will bring forth Lightbringer (whether it is a true sword or a symbolic entity).

(On a side note, the Judeo-Christian myth that I couldn't think of was the triumph of Yahweh over the primordial monster Rahab which was also reenacted through the King at the New Year festival.)

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I think the only real solid evidence anyone would have of Jon surviving is that we have seen character in Martin's work​ "resurrected" before (i.e. readers were simply led to believe they were dead when they weren't).

There's a precedent for much more than just "readers were simply led to believe they were dead when they weren't". People have been straight-up killed, and then straight-up brought back. See: Berric & Cat.

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I can see this, but it also assumes that GRRM kills off characters simply for shock value, and I think that's selling him short. It may have been shocking to kill off Ned and Robb, but both of their narratives had gone as far as they could go, whereas Jon's has not. He hasn't even learned who his parents really were!

I have always thought as he wrote/rewrote the story that the reveal that Jon was R+L could have been used to show Targs are still capable of greatness/mercy. Jon dying trying to protect the Realm of Men including Wildlings from the threat of the Others in order to galvanize people behind either Aegon or Dany. I know it is slim, but the cliffhangers have gotten to me a little as well. (Davos' head/hands, Aegon if he is real, Tyrion going into the water, etc)It has been a while since a shock has stuck.

That being said I am interested to see how Jon returns. I am hoping for less magic, nut I think that is inevitble.

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So what would their "Transfiguration" moments be? Dany with her turn toward fire and blood. Perhaps Jon with the "Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Jon's crypt dreams could be the transfiguration moment. A vision from the two dead prophets could be Bran/Bloodraven or Bran/Rickon. God reveals to the apostles that Jesus is his Son during the transfiguration IIRC so if Jon's parentage is revealed that would be a big clue. Dany I've got nothing on so far unless the Viserys vision covers it but I'd need to reread it.

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With regard to Christian (and Jewish) mythology, Rhaegar has always seemed like he was patterned after a savior figure, but one who was cut down before his time. It would be a neat twist to discover that the story had provided the intended Azor Ahai, only for him to die in civil war before he had the chance to play his role. It could even explain the shifting sense of who is Azor Ahai as knowledgeable people attempt to find a serviceable backup.

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With regard to Christian (and Jewish) mythology, Rhaegar has always seemed like he was patterned after a savior figure, but one who was cut down before his time. It would be a neat twist to discover that the story had provided the intended Azor Ahai, only for him to die in civil war before he had the chance to play his role. It could even explain the shifting sense of who is Azor Ahai as knowledgeable people attempt to find a serviceable backup.

You think Rhaegar might be one of the prophets, someone who foretold the coming of the "actual" savior?

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