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Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology


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The Norse parallels make an insane amount of sense to me. I can see Val making the decision (choosing) that Jon's body be stored in the Ice Cells. Wall-halla in a way (sorry couldn't resist).

And does Tormund Thunderfist, Ruddy King of Mead Hall evoke Thor for anyone else? Does Thor play an important role in Ragnarok? I have a vague recollection of Thor owning runed bracers although I'm probably mythtaken.

Then, of course, there was Stannis tempting Jon with everything Jon ever wanted, a Temptation in the Snow instead of a Temptation in the Desert, which Jon refused in favor of keeping faith. Hmmn, that Stannis, I knew there was something fishy about him . . .

And it happened on the top of the Wall. To parallel the panoramic view from the mountain top Christ had during his temptation.

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With regard to Christian (and Jewish) mythology, Rhaegar has always seemed like he was patterned after a savior figure, but one who was cut down before his time. It would be a neat twist to discover that the story had provided the intended Azor Ahai, only for him to die in civil war before he had the chance to play his role. It could even explain the shifting sense of who is Azor Ahai as knowledgeable people attempt to find a serviceable backup.

Or that there are multiple "azor ahais"\savior figures. In the Hebrew Bible for the most part messiah just means "anointed one." As in someone that God has anointed to do God's work. For example, in Isaiah we have Hezekiah the king referred to as an anointed one and Cyrus the Great--a Persian because he brought deliverance from the Babylonians. Zoroastrianism (which heavily influenced a lot of Jewish thought and beliefs) teaches that no single savior will help destroy the "evil one." Multiple saviors (sometimes three, sometimes unnumbered) each have their part to play in defeating the darkness.

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You think Rhaegar might be one of the prophets, someone who foretold the coming of the "actual" savior?

I think it's possible and it would make for a more nuanced hero's journey. I'm not very knowledgeable about the founding of the Baha'i Faith, but Rhaegar sounds a bit like figure of the Báb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b), a man who proclaimed himself the return of an ancient prophet, but who later came to believe that he was the forerunner to an even greater prophet, Bahá'u'lláh.

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And does Tormund Thunderfist, Ruddy King of Mead Hall evoke Thor for anyone else? Does Thor play an important role in Ragnarok? I have a vague recollection of Thor owning runed bracers although I'm probably mythtaken.

I want to say that Thor fights a giant ... snake-thing? ... but ends up collapsing dead afterward.

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This thread has taught me that I REALLY need to bone up on my near-East religions. I did a religious studies course in college about eastern religion: Hinduism, Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. Not seeing much opportunity to apply it here. :(

Trust me. I'm going to be doing some homework on Celtic and Norse religion and mythology. I've been blown away by the analysis on threads like this and the heresy threads.

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Or that there are multiple "azor ahais"\savior figures. In the Hebrew Bible for the most part messiah just means "anointed one." As in someone that God has anointed to do God's work. For example, in Isaiah we have Hezekiah the king referred to as an anointed one and Cyrus the Great--a Persian because he brought deliverance from the Babylonians. Zoroastrianism (which heavily influenced a lot of Jewish thought and beliefs) teaches that no single savior will help destroy the "evil one." Multiple saviors (sometimes three, sometimes unnumbered) each have their part to play in defeating the darkness.

Sometime during the Second Temple period, there was a radical shift in Jewish thought about messianism that led to the better-known (and co-opted by Christians) belief that there was one prophesied messiah figure that would triumph over evil. Do you think that the truth of a multi-part Azor Ahai could have been obscured (or merely changed/evolved as time went on) in the same way?

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GRRM has mentioned before how he did not like the resurrection of Gandalf. Stating that there was no consequence to Gandlaf's journey and he came back more powerful. Seeing how he handled both Lord Beric and Lady Stoneheart I am wondering how he is going to keep Jon alive without reversing field, the only way I can think is his trip to "death" is not as truly "death" but a coma like state.

Martin disliked Gandalf’s resurrection because the One, Eru Ilúvatar — God the Allfather — and supreme Creator of the entire universe, intervened in the world from out of time. He did not merely slap on the paddles and jump-start Gandalf’s failed heart after it had given out, letting him claw his way back from death’s doorstep a little worse for the wear.

No, Gandalf passed beyond the circles of the world, and his soul passed out of time. Gandalf was returned by the Authority to complete his mission. Not the gods — the Powers, the Valar — who had first dispatched Gandalf on his mission thousands of years ago, but the very Creator Himself re-incarnated Gandalf’s discarnate spirit into a greater form than the old bedraggled ragdoll the Balrog left atop Zirik-Zigil. God himself hallowed Gandalf, not merely restoring him but making him holy.

When Gimli apologized for mistaking Gandalf, returned from the dead, for Saruman, Gandalf told him that no harm was done, and that indeed none of them had any weapon that could hurt him. Gimli soon thereafter remarks, “Since Gandalf’s head is now sacred, let us find one that it is right to cleave!” If Gandalf the Grey was before an angel in disguise, Gandalf the White is now an archangel only thinly veiled, the most dangerous being in all of Middle-earth after Sauron himself.

As you see, this is no longer the stuff even of heroic romance; it is the stuff of myth itself, for it treats with angels and daemons, gods and even God. Gandalf is now sacred, and Martin doesn’t like that, not at all. Remember that Martin is himself an atheist. He has said that we would never learn whether the gods people in his story believe in are really there or not, just as it is in real life.

That isn’t how it works in Tolkien, where not only do the gods exist, so does God. Martin does not like the idea of divine intervention from the Almighty himself taking a meddling hand in history. That is at the root of why he disapproves of Gandalf’s return; it isn’t just that he thinks Gandalf should have suffered permanent brain damage. Martin disapproves of Gandalf being hallowed and resurrected into greater glory by God Himself.

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Something missing from the Ragnarok parallel is an evil wolf. We don't have a Fenrir figure. Or do we? If the Night's King was indeed a Stark, we may be seeing his shade returning.

I've wondered about the Fenrir and who it would be. Night's King resurrection could be.

What if it's Bran? It seems popular to think that Bloodraven is secretly evil and that he's leading Bran astray, but what if Bran himself, already shown willing to violate Hodor's mind, ends up turning on his tutor? I love Bran, but I could see this happening.

In Ragnorak, Odin is killed by Fenrir.

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Sometime during the Second Temple period, there was a radical shift in Jewish thought about messianism that led to the better-known (and co-opted by Christians) belief that there was one prophesied messiah figure that would triumph over evil. Do you think that the truth of a multi-part Azor Ahai could have been obscured (or merely changed/evolved as time went on) in the same way?

It was right around the time of Antiochus Epiphanes that we start to see a major shift towards a single messianic figure that would deliver the Jewish people from their oppressors. It only strengthened after Rome took over.

As for the Azor Ahai thing. I'm going to guess that the AA myth we have is one version of the story. No religion is monolithic. It may be the dominant view the Red Lot hold, but who knows if it is the only one. In Zoroastrianism we see a shift towards a more singular savior figure as it became less dominant in the first few centuries after Christianity got going fairly strong. We've clearly got at least two competing views of azor ahai already with the Red Priest in Volantis (I'm blanking on the name) proclaiming Dany as Azor Ahai come again to break the chains of slavery. And we've got Mel that believes Azor Ahai is meant to fight the Great Other. I think we've got evidence for different orders and sects within the Red Lot too. It always got my attention in Mel's chapter that she was the "Best of her order" in seeing what was in the flames.

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Martin disliked Gandalf’s resurrection because the One, Eru Ilúvatar ...

That actually brings up another interesting myth, Tolkien's creation story. God calls all the angels in to sing. They sing, everything is beautiful until Melkor (Lucifer figure) grows jealous and tries to take over the song and it becomes discordant. God throws in his own voice and restores the harmony. Melkor grows angry and tries it again and things become discordant and God again adds his voice to bring back harmony. Afterwards God throws the eternal flame into the void and they all watch the song play out. He agrees to make the world real if the angels agree to enter it and shepard it until the song is done. The two voices God adds to the song become the elves and men in the world. Melkor's discordant singing (cold) mixes with another angel's voice (rain) and becomes snow. Given that this is a Song of Ice and Fire, I thought it worth mentioning. The whole thing is probably only one or two dozen pages in the beginning of the Silmarillion IIRC.

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It was right around the time of Antiochus Epiphanes that we start to see a major shift towards a single messianic figure that would deliver the Jewish people from their oppressors. It only strengthened after Rome took over.

I wonder if we'll see a mirror of the corruption in the existing Temple leadership in that time. I can only imagine that part of the reason people turned to apocalyptic interpretations of their faith was the sense that that they were locked out of participation in their own faith. Was there a reformation or a shift in the Red Priesthood post-AA when the old leadership proved incapable of seeing to the needs of its followers?

I think part of the problem is that we're dealing with a situation where the origin story of Azor Ahai could well be true, instead of being almost pure mythology as in real world faiths. Other than the nightfires and the wedding ritual in Dance, we don't know much about what other practices the followers of R'hllor hold to. We don't know what services the Red Priests typically provide for their followers. Part of the anger toward the establishment in the Second Temple period came from the exorbitant amounts of money required to participate in the festivals and the sacrificial aspects of Jewish life. And when your leaders are collaborators or clients of an occupying power that shows little respect for your ways, you're more likely to believe in divine deliverance from the evils and corruption of the material world.

Benerro, the High Priest of Volantis, would seem to be the establishment guy even though he's siding with the dispossessed and downtrodden of his own city, proclaiming a foreign savior he's never met. Melisandre and Thoros seem to have few real links to the institutional side of R'hllorism, acting as independent agents and pursuing the causes that interest them. Are we left to choose between which is the more authentic expression of the search for Azor Ahai Reborn? Could both parties be wrong?

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I wonder if we'll see a mirror of the corruption in the existing Temple leadership in that time. I can only imagine that part of the reason people turned to apocalyptic interpretations of their faith was the sense that that they were locked out of participation in their own faith. Was there a reformation or a shift in the Red Priesthood post-AA when the old leadership proved incapable of seeing to the needs of its followers?

I think part of the problem is that we're dealing with a situation where the origin story of Azor Ahai could well be true, instead of being almost pure mythology as in real world faiths. Other than the nightfires and the wedding ritual in Dance, we don't know much about what other practices the followers of R'hllor hold to. We don't know what services the Red Priests typically provide for their followers. Part of the anger toward the establishment in the Second Temple period came from the exorbitant amounts of money required to participate in the festivals and the sacrificial aspects of Jewish life. And when your leaders are collaborators or clients of an occupying power that shows little respect for your ways, you're more likely to believe in divine deliverance from the evils and corruption of the material world.

Benerro, the High Priest of Volantis, would seem to be the establishment guy even though he's siding with the dispossessed and downtrodden of his own city, proclaiming a foreign savior he's never met. Melisandre and Thoros seem to have few real links to the institutional side of R'hllorism, acting as independent agents and pursuing the causes that interest them. Are we left to choose between which is the more authentic expression of the search for Azor Ahai Reborn? Could both parties be wrong?

This is what I find both fascinating and frustrating. I just don't think Martin has given us enough info. We have several Red Priests out doing things--but we don't know much how the establishment works. For example, how are people chosen to become priests (versus other servants\roles in the temples). Do they chose those that show some level of magical ability? Thoros was shipped off as a missionary. What about the Red Priest that converted Selyse years before Melisandre came around? Did Melisandre go on her own volition to Asshai to learn more sorcery\shadow-binding or was she sent there by some authority? For all we know the Asshai "By the Shadow" is another hinge of the world analogous to the Wall.

As for the political aspects. Is Benerro supporting Dany as Azor Ahai as more a faith or political move or both? And Melisandre is assuming that the Great Other is what they are going to be fighting at the Wall (and the Great Other's servants). For all we know other Red Priests hold different interpretations as to who the servants of the Great Other are. We've got evidence that the kiss Thoros gives Beric is part of a funeral ritual (reenacting a magical ability to bring people back from death before magic waned from the world). And now it works again.

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Thank you for that very thought-provoking post, Apple Martini. I know you were linking the myth of Hades and Persephone to Bowen Marsh, but it also made me think of the Night King and his cold Queen. Their story is sort of an inside-out version of the myth, which is an explanation of the seasons. Maybe the unusual seasons in the ASOIAF world are related to that hushed-up history. [Or not.] In any case, you've given us a lot to think about.

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I've wondered about the Fenrir and who it would be. Night's King resurrection could be.

What if it's Bran? It seems popular to think that Bloodraven is secretly evil and that he's leading Bran astray, but what if Bran himself, already shown willing to violate Hodor's mind, ends up turning on his tutor? I love Bran, but I could see this happening.

In Ragnorak, Odin is killed by Fenrir.

You might want to check this thread. It has some interesting things regarding north mythology

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For example, how are people chosen to become priests (versus other servants\roles in the temples). Do they chose those that show some level of magical ability?

I wish I knew. If anyone can learn the magic of the Red Priests, perhaps they would select for intelligence, memory, or obedience? If it's inborn, they'd have to have some way to test for the ability. It seems like the practices of the Red Priests are shaped, in part, by the culture in which their temples operate. Benerro and many of the Volantene priests/soldiers are slaves. Melisandre has memories of being sold as a slave (to the temple?), but Thoros was sent to join the temple in Myr because his family had too many children. There are no signs of his ever having been a slave.

Thoros was shipped off as a missionary. What about the Red Priest that converted Selyse years before Melisandre came around? Did Melisandre go on her own volition to Asshai to learn more sorcery\shadow-binding or was she sent there by some authority? For all we know the Asshai "By the Shadow" is another hinge of the world analogous to the Wall.

I wish I knew if Thoros was required to keep in touch with his temple and report on his progress. Since the start of his time with the Brotherhood, is he considered to be AWOL, even though this is the first time in his career that he's really done the work of his faith?

With regard to Melisandre's other abilities, we haven't heard anyone else speak about shadows or shadowbinding in the service of the Red Temple, which leads me to believe that perhaps Melisandre has training in other skills that aren't considered part of the R'hllorian tradition. Perhaps the practices of the Red Priests in Asshai center much more on magic than preaching or social activism because magic never really died there the way it did in the western part of the world.

As for the political aspects. Is Benerro supporting Dany as Azor Ahai as more a faith or political move or both? And Melisandre is assuming that the Great Other is what they are going to be fighting at the Wall (and the Great Other's servants). For all we know other Red Priests hold different interpretations as to who the servants of the Great Other are. We've got evidence that the kiss Thoros gives Beric is part of a funeral ritual (reenacting a magical ability to bring people back from death before magic waned from the world). And now it works again.

In the case of Benerro, he almost comes off as Rabbi Akiva (in keeping with the thread of historical Judaism running through our discussion). In the end, perhaps he's a great man, a respected scholar, and a skilled leader, but ultimately wrong in his identification of his faith's savior figure? He's really turned on the rhetoric about Dany -- death itself will bend knee, people who fight for Dany will live forever, etc.

I don't think there's a chance that his message isn't political. He has the flame tattoos in the tradition of Volantene slaves, though by his description, he seems Qartheen in origin. He seems like he's been in the city for quite a long time. Chances are he sees Dany as an opportunity to advance R'hllor's creed and perhaps gain political power in the city as a proxy for Dany. He also seems to genuinely care about the people he's preaching to.

We don't see any evidence that Thoros is concerned about Azor Ahai or the battle with the Great Other, while Benerro and Melisandre seem consumed by this aspect of their faith. Are these roles assigned in the temple, or is this merely a matter of personal interest?

You're right about the funeral rites. We have no indication of whether Melisandre practices this tradition or whether she's done it for those who died in the service of Stannis. Perhaps there's more to it than just the ritual for the dead? Otherwise, you'd think we'd have people coming back to life all over the place. Perhaps only "special" people can be resurrected by the kiss. People whose purpose is in league with the teachings of R'hllor?

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It's a pretty common motif in Near-Eastern myth. The most well-known one is the Babylonian myth found in the Enuma Elish (the original mythology can be traced back to the Akkadians). Marduk slays the primordial dragon\sea serpent Tiamat and from her body creates land, sky, and the milky way. Dragons and water are both linked in Near-Eastern mythology as forces of chaos that must be given order by divinely appointed heroes.

In a previous discussion in this forum BrosBeforeSnows, made the connection that in the story of Rhaegar and Robert we have the Dragon facing the Storm Lord. A parallel to Jormundgandr facing Thor. Reposting my reply on the subject:

"This tale is not however unique to Norse Mythology. It is a variation of the age-old story of the Storm God facing the monster, the serpent, the dragon. Which exists in many mythologies and might have some forgotten source in prehistory.

*Ishkur/Adad, the Storm God, Enlil, the Storm God or Marduk, the Storm God vs. the primordial sea deity Tiamat in Mesoppotamian mythologies. More specifically the texts of the Summerians, the Akkadians, and Babylonians. Tiamat is depicted as a sea serpent or dragon in artwork.

*Set/Seth, the Storm God vs. Apep/Apophis in Egyptian Mythology. Technically Apep represents darkness and chaos, but he is depicted in artwork as a snake, a dragon, or a generic serpent.

*Ba'al Hadad, the Storm God (Lord Hadad, the Baal of the Bible) vs. the sea deity Yam in the mythologies of ancient Canaan (Palestine). Yam is depicted as a serpent or a seven-headed dragon in art. He was said to reside in a palace at the bottom of the abyss.

*Teshub/Tarhun, the Storm god vs the dragon Illuyankas in the mythologies of ancient Anatolia. More specifically the texts of the Hattians, Hurrians, Hittites and Luwians.

*Indra, the Storm god vs. Vritra (an Asura) in ancient Hindu mythology. Vritra is depicted as a serpent or dragon in art. Though curiously it personifies drought instead of the sea.

*Zeus, the Storm God vs. Typhon in Greek mythology.Typhon was depicted having a single human head, multiple serpent heads, the coils and tail of a snake, wings. He was also said to shoot fire from his head(s).

The Storm God always faces the dragon. Who more often that not is a sea deity or sea animal. If there are characters corresponding to the traditional "serpent" in the Song of Ice and Fire, those would be the Drowned God and Nagga."

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ETA: I hope Mance = Orpheus, for no reason other than I really can't help myself these days. :cool4:

Mance as the inspired singer who can "charm all living things and even stones with his music"? Wow, you really like this character.

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