Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[What is dead may never die]

You say "spoilers", but that thread name is still pretty damn spoilery...

My apologies; given that this is the "Winds of Winter" board I just assumed that everyone here would have read ADwD.

[The Manticore Knight]

I think you're taking the word 'prince' too literally... It can also mean just 'hero'.

Edited for spelling

[Mace Cooterian]

Jon's not going to die. And he's NOT going to lose his body. At most he'll warg into ghost for a chapter, then come back when his body is healed. This would be enough to let him know more about his abilities he hasn't been developing, and probably act as a way for him to finally discover what's going on with his brother Bran. This whole thing has to accomplish something, and it sure isn't Jon losing his body and becoming an animal. That is not only redundant because it's already Bran's story, but he obviously has his own path among men.

What this near death experience COULD accomplish, and be much more useful for, is moving the story ahead by getting pertinent information from Bran to Jon. If everything happens in two books, the ball needs to start rolling pretty quickly here, and the Stark Family is litterally all over the map.

I still have a lot of trouble with the Jon in Ghost theory. First it was made pretty clear in the Varamyr prologue that when a warg dies his spirit transfers to a familiar and lives out his (or her) second life there, gradually fading into the host and unable to warg anywhere else, ie; if his original body is dead he can't warg back into it.

Resurrection by Mel a la Thoros says you, well no. In the first place the body is still dead, but more importantly the resurrection magic whether by ice or fire appears to involve both arresting the decay at the point when the magic is done and awakening the spirit sleeping within the body. If Jon's in Ghost, there's nobody home and the body can't be awakened - just as Varamyr's body wasn't with Thistle and the other wights at the end of the prologue.

As to Jon remaining in Ghost, as I've said before that would be a touch limiting - one bark for yes, two barks for no...

I have therefore to go with GRRM's "you think he's dead do you?" and answer probably not. He's certainly badly wounded and he may well be about to spend some time in Ghost, but his body is probably still alive, prevented from bleeding out by the cold - preserved - and he's about to get a visit from the Three Eyed Crow.

I like the synopsis of these two quotes by 'Big Daddy Dave' and 'Black Crow'. I basically came to this conclusion after a re-read on Bran in AGoT where he is flying with the 3EC...

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like a blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him". Let's fast foward past the fly-over of the cold, cold north until the 3EC whispers in his ear...."Now you know, why you must live".

So without getting into R+L=J, TPTWP, AA, etc., etc....(IMHO) I think Bran will be more influential to keeping Jon from dying than will Mel.

[Maisie the white]

Jon Snow is not dead. At page 1060 DWD, after reading "Ramsay Snow's" letter, Jon and his loyal mates, Horse and Rory, replace Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch.

"With me," John told them, when the time came."

This is ambiguous, but I think it means that Jon, at least, went into the armoury and possibly came out wearing some sort of concealed armour - at least on his back.

The attack scene on page 1064, says that the first strike was deflected and barely cut his skin. The second, was prevented. The third in the belly, admittedly, sounds serious:

"He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it."

When Jon pulls the dagger out, there is no mention of blood (as was the case with the neck scratch): " In the cold night air the wound was smoking" Just body heat escaping into the cold air?

And lastly : "He never felt the fourth knife." Certainly not if he was wearing armour.

I think another clue that Jon is armoured comes from the mention of the Shieldhall (page 1060) as the site for the highly controversial meeting.

[Black Crow]

What Jon was wearing has been much discussed in times past. Nothing is specifically mentioned in relation to this incident but judging from how he's described at other times the very fact of carrying Longclaw on his back implies he has all the other gear to go with it including ring mail, leather and padded jerkin.

[HouseLark]

I must confess that my prejudice has gone into my thinking about Jon's ending in ADWD. I hate the reanimation of dead characters in the series. When it was just Lord Beric it felt important, out of the ordinary, then when he passed his life support to Cat I accepted it because it made for a reasonably good narrative. I was less impressed with the Mountain's (unconfirmed) resurrection and if Jon is also now dead it would just seem that too many previously dead people are running around. To me, what was once an interesting idea for its rarity is now a bit hackneyed.

For that reason, I cling to dear life to my idea that Jon is not dead at all. Even if he's not wearing armour, he's taken four stab wounds and none to obviously critical areas like the throat, head or heart. People regularly survive much worse. So I like to think that Jon is severely wounded rather than dead but I realise that's pretty prosaic for many tastes.

[TheKingwithTheSword]

i think Jon will have several cuts on his body but the will be smoking and look charred as Victarions arm is. The Wildlings will probably kill the crows cause lets face it. the NW aint shit. they have like 100 sworn brothers?

[ihatebrienne]

I must confess that my prejudice has gone into my thinking about Jon's ending in ADWD. I hate the reanimation of dead characters in the series. When it was just Lord Beric it felt important, out of the ordinary, then when he passed his life support to Cat I accepted it because it made for a reasonably good narrative. I was less impressed with the Mountain's (unconfirmed) resurrection and if Jon is also now dead it would just seem that too many previously dead people are running around. To me, what was once an interesting idea for its rarity is now a bit hackneyed.

For that reason, I cling to dear life to my idea that Jon is not dead at all. Even if he's not wearing armour, he's taken four stab wounds and none to obviously critical areas like the throat, head or heart. People regularly survive much worse. So I like to think that Jon is severely wounded rather than dead but I realise that's pretty prosaic for many tastes.

+1

Jon will recover and kick the shit out of Bowen Marsh and all the other traitors

[conwaysuccess]

I hope he stays alive to kill Ramsay Bolton... in a horrible agonizing death!!! I think I hate him more than Jeoffrey... Even if he never ends up being TPTWP, AA reborn... (Although I desperately want that too!)

[Mace Cooterian]

Jon Snow is not dead. At page 1060 DWD, after reading "Ramsay Snow's" letter, Jon and his loyal mates, Horse and Rory, replace Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch.

"With me," John told them, when the time came."

This is ambiguous, but I think it means that Jon, at least, went into the armoury and possibly came out wearing some sort of concealed armour - at least on his back.

The attack scene on page 1064, says that the first strike was deflected and barely cut his skin. The second, was prevented. The third in the belly, admittedly, sounds serious:

"He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it."

When Jon pulls the dagger out, there is no mention of blood (as was the case with the neck scratch): " In the cold night air the wound was smoking" Just body heat escaping into the cold air?

And lastly : "He never felt the fourth knife." Certainly not if he was wearing armour.

I think another clue that Jon is armoured comes from the mention of the Shieldhall (page 1060) as the site for the highly controversial meeting.

@Malaise...I agree with you as well that Jon is not dead. Earlier posts had suggested that Mel was going to be influeintial in the "resurrection" of Jon. My point, based on the dream by Bran, is that he would be more influential in the future of Jon, than Mel. Perhaps I should have said it that way.

[mrlukeduke]

"I think we had best change the plan," said Jon Snow.

They talked for two hours.

----

I really want to know what they spoke of for two hours.

[Black Crow]

Nothing beyond the plans for the Hardhome expedition. GRRM has confirmed that he simply needed to move the action forward by a couple of hours.

[mrlukeduke]

Maybe Jon just drank too much wine and fell asleep at his desk. Awkward.

We already know he's a bit of a lightweight.

[Pharoh]

You guys are taking the "he didn't feel the fourth knife" thing too literally I think it just meant that he didn't feel the pain because he was numb and dying.

[MtnLion]

You guys are taking the "he didn't feel the fourth knife" thing too literally I think it just meant that he didn't feel the pain because he was numb and dying.

Or, it could mean that he expected the fourth knife because of the fourth conspiritor that chickened out. Or, it could mean that the fourth knife was used in a slashing motion which was completely absorbed by Jon's armor. We just don't know.

[Pharoh]

Or, it could mean that he expected the fourth knife because of the fourth conspirator that chickened out. Or, it could mean that the fourth knife was used in a slashing motion which was completely absorbed by Jon's armor. We just don't know.

possibly but i think that it's just over analyzing it, because even if the last hit didn't land the other 3 hits got him (or was it only 2? i think the first 1 only scratch him or smth)

[Budj]

The 'cold' was entering him. Read into this after reading the Ice Dragon - the main character in that story was a 'winter child' (quite literally in that story) and the cold entering her during the birthing process was mentioned similarly. How that will work in this story I'm not sure...but I'm guessing it will just help preserve / put him in stasis mode till he can get some help.

[Jared Frey]

I propose that he was wearing a shirt of chainmail as well. Leave it to GRRM to make it so simple after all this discussion and wondering.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

If Jon was wearing armor, it must have been shitty. He had a knife in his guts.

[mrlukeduke]

The 'cold' was entering him. Read into this after reading the Ice Dragon - the main character in that story was a 'winter child' (quite literally in that story) and the cold entering her during the birthing process was mentioned similarly. How that will work in this story I'm not sure...but I'm guessing it will just help preserve / put him in stasis mode till he can get some help.

Well, I think he's either dead or bleeding to death with no-one really able to save him without (1) sudden intervention to stop his throat being cut and (2) magic to heal his undoubtedly fatal wounds (stab to the gut, back, neck near slashed, "fourth blow"?...).

As for stasis, yes I concur. I reckon he'll end up in a block of ice somewhere, "preserved" in terms of his flesh. And some magic will bring him back "somehow" (e.g. he warged into Ghost, and he'll warg back in).

The reason he'll be preserved IMO is only because as soon as the Night's Watch find out that (my prediction) Stannis is victorious, they'll all soil themselves and flee Castle Black, but for the Jon loyalists who'll take care of his body (smoke and salt or something).