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Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen


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Well, yeah. What did you think we were arguing about? The entire point is that Ned tells them Viserys is on Dragonstone and they don't care.

As I said I never noticed that part before, only read the books once as I don't think I need to read them over again. First thing came to my mind back then was Rhaegar's supposed "rebellion" starts here at ToJ as he "commanded" 3 of the Kingsguard (Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower!) to diss Aerys II and let him die. But now that line from Gerold in his exchange with Ned might suggest something other than my assumptions.

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I wonder how readers would feel about Jon if he becomes increasingly resentful when he finds out the truth and ends up hating Ned. I'd love to see what that would do to the collective psyche of the fan community.

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I wonder how readers would feel about Jon if he becomes increasingly resentful when he finds out the truth and ends up hating Ned. I'd love to see what that would do to the collective psyche of the fan community.

I don't think he'll hate Ned, I think he'll love him even more because Eddard Stark's honor was stained by keeping him alive and away from Robert Baratheon.

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Yes, it would be kinda cool if Jon is Rhaegar's son and everything. But who cares whether or not he is legitimate??? Why would it ever matter at this point??? Who cares about the validity of his "claim"??? Someone please explain this to me once and for all. And as I've said before, even if Lyanna's son is a bastard, its not as if the KG would just take off, on the one in 10 million chance that 3 guys are going to be able to change the fate of the possibly-remaining family/heirs if theyre alive by the time they reach them in a few weeks. I think R + L easily could have been married, but it makes no difference story-wise.

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I wonder how readers would feel about Jon if he becomes increasingly resentful when he finds out the truth and ends up hating Ned. I'd love to see what that would do to the collective psyche of the fan community.

I think it depends on how he comes to learn of it, and whether it's told to him by a sympathetic party. I tend to think that he'll feel betrayed, but he's sort of reached a point in his arc where he thinks things through rather than just lash out; besides, he knows Ned was going to tell him of his mother the next time they'd met, so Jon at least knows that Ned intended to tell him the truth. I think he could be angry with Ned while still retaining his Stark identity- at least, I don't see him embracing being a Targ.

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And as I've said before, even if Lyanna's son is a bastard, its not as if the KG would just take off, on the one in 10 million chance that 3 guys are going to be able to change the fate of the possibly-remaining family/heirs if theyre alive by the time they reach them in a few weeks.

It doesn't matter what the odds of their success are. They are duty bound to at least try to reach their king.

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Yes, it would be kinda cool if Jon is Rhaegar's son and everything. But who cares whether or not he is legitimate??? Why would it ever matter at this point??? Who cares about the validity of his "claim"??? Someone please explain this to me once and for all. And as I've said before, even if Lyanna's son is a bastard, its not as if the KG would just take off, on the one in 10 million chance that 3 guys are going to be able to change the fate of the possibly-remaining family/heirs if theyre alive by the time they reach them in a few weeks. I think R + L easily could have been married, but it makes no difference story-wise.

Every time I convince myself that it doesn't really matter for the story, I stop and wonder, "Why would GRRM make Jon legitimate if it didn't matter?"

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Yes, it would be kinda cool if Jon is Rhaegar's son and everything. But who cares whether or not he is legitimate??? Why would it ever matter at this point??? Who cares about the validity of his "claim"??? Someone please explain this to me once and for all. And as I've said before, even if Lyanna's son is a bastard, its not as if the KG would just take off, on the one in 10 million chance that 3 guys are going to be able to change the fate of the possibly-remaining family/heirs if theyre alive by the time they reach them in a few weeks. I think R + L easily could have been married, but it makes no difference story-wise.

Well for one legitimacy would be everything when it comes down to Jon, Dany, Aegon VI (assuming he's legit Targ) because every one of these 3 have a claim to the throne.

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That's always the first assumption. That Jon is a good old Stark and he'll stay that way. I'd actually be appreciative of a storyline that isn't so predictable.

But that's not so predictable in terms of how the myth normally plays out-- usually the kid of "uncertain parentage" learns he's the true king and lives happily ever after embracing his new identity and discarding the old. I don't really see any indication that Jon is going to suddenly support the Targaryens or be willing to be named king on his Targ name or anything like that.

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But that's not so predictable in terms of how the myth normally plays out-- usually the kid of "uncertain parentage" learns he's the true king and lives happily ever after embracing his new identity and discarding the old. I don't really see any indication that Jon is going to suddenly support the Targaryens or be willing to be named king on his Targ name or anything like that.

And there's possibility of Jon being AAR right? :cool4:

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But that's not so predictable in terms of how the myth normally plays out-- usually the kid of "uncertain parentage" learns he's the true king and lives happily ever after embracing his new identity and discarding the old. I don't really see any indication that Jon is going to suddenly support the Targaryens or be willing to be named king on his Targ name or anything like that.

This isn't about being a Targaryen or embracing that side of himself. That's a side issue. I was playing more with the concept of Jon renouncing Ned and never forgiving him, more like Lady Dustin.

There seems to be this grand assumption that the Starks between themselves, along with Jon, will invariably come to work together in the end. I'd like to see a scenario where that isn't necessarily the case.

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I tend to think that Lyanna's 'bed of blood' was not the bloody, gory image that some people seem to have of it. It was likely that she was cleaned up and not literally lying in blood. Sure she probably was hemorrhaging, but she would have had something there to soak it up.

The 'bed of blood' is a metaphor. It is a colloquial term that people in this world always equate with the child birthing bed.

Even if she weren't hemorrhaging, there would have been a lot of blood. Bed of blood isn't just a metaphor, it's a fact. Childbirth is a messy bloody process. I'm not saying the blood would have been painting the room, but there is a surprising amount of blood involved. Technically you bleed during the birth, you bleed after the birth, you bleed for a long time after that. So yes there is a lot of blood. The person I was responding to asked if she could have died from complications month after and I noted that while you bleed for weeks after, the fact that there was still blood suggested it was more recently after the birth as opposed to months later.

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And there's possibility of Jon being AAR right? :cool4:

Well, my personal crackpot is that he's the Last Hero and that AA is just a red herring -- the AA myth doesn't have anything to do with the Long Night from what we know.

This isn't about being a Targaryen or embracing that side of himself. That's a side issue. I was playing more with the concept of Jon renouncing Ned and never forgiving him, more like Lady Dustin.

There seems to be this grand assumption that the Starks between themselves, along with Jon, will invariably come to work together in the end. I'd like to see a scenario where that isn't necessarily the case.

Yea, no. I don't think Lady Dustin is actually as anti-Stark as she says-- the lady doth protest too much. The Starks might not all be on the same side I suppose- I personally think something might come between Jon and Bran, actually.

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The Starks might not all be on the same side I suppose- I personally think something might come between Jon and Bran, actually.

I was actually toying with that one. About Bran having his own agenda. Arya is always a possibility as well. I don't know though, it still seems doubtful to me. I would like a much grayer Jon Snow though (which, to be fair, we were promised). I've seen no evidence of it myself but perhaps things will change going forward.

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