Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen

[Dragonfish]

I don't believe he's a Targaryen either; or I don't want to believe it.

I mean, from the beginning of the whole bloody series we learnt that looks are inherited when crossed with specific families. And then the big mystery reveal in the end will tell us that Jon Snow, who looks so much like his father, with the classic Stark look is a Targaryen! Come on.

"But he had Lyanna for a mother, she looked like a Stark!"

- Well I think it's cheap if the Targaryen features were washed over to completely normal features. (Grey eyes, brown hair) Especially since genes in ASOIAF seem to be magical.

Rhaegar's own daugher, Rhaenys, looked Dornish. Other Targaryens in the past have also had non-Targ features. There's nothing cheap about it. It's not the author's fault if you jumped to the conclusion that all Targs have the Valyrian look.

[Night Gathers]

Rhaegar's own daugher, Rhaenys, looked Dornish. Other Targaryens in the past have also had non-Targ features. There's nothing cheap about it. It's not the author's fault if you jumped to the conclusion that all Targs have the Valyrian look.

I don't recall others than Rhaenys. Mind telling me who the others are so I can come to peace with R+L=J?

I still don't think it's a great reveal. One thing if Ned had read in the book of the Ancestor's in GOT and hinted that Targaryen/Stark children didn't always have Valyrian features, that's one thing. Since we learned that like you said, not every Targaryen has the Valyrian look, but same with the Lannisters, it's just that when they mate with a specific family that the same traits show.

If we don't have any Targaryen/Stark children examples from the books, how will we know?

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't recall others than Rhaenys. Mind telling me who the others are so I can come to peace with R+L=J?

I still don't think it's a great reveal. One thing if Ned had read in the book of the Ancestor's in GOT and hinted that Targaryen/Stark children didn't always have Valyrian features, that's one thing. Since we learned that like you said, not every Targaryen has the Valyrian look, but same with the Lannisters, it's just that when they mate with a specific family that the same traits show.

If we don't have any Targaryen/Stark children examples from the books, how will we know?

Baelor Breakspear and his sons, from The Hedge Knight, had the Dornish look from his mother. Aegor Rivers, called Bittersteel, had dark hair but lilac eyes. Then there's a number of Targaryen descendants from other families who totally don't look like Targs - the Martells and Baratheons, for example.

[Dragonfish]

I don't recall others than Rhaenys. Mind telling me who the others are so I can come to peace with R+L=J?

Baelor Breakspear, from the novella The Hedge Knight. His had the Dornish look, like his mother, and so did his children.

Daeron Targaryen, son of Maekar, who had sandy blond hair. Also from The Hedge Knight.

Bittersteel, who had dark hair.

Several Westerosi families are also descended from Targs, including the Martells and Robert Baratheon himself, whose grandmother was a Targaryen.

Those are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head.

I still don't think it's a great reveal. One thing if Ned had read in the book of the Ancestor's in GOT and hinted that Targaryen/Stark children didn't always have Valyrian features, that's one thing. Since we learned that like you said, not every Targaryen has the Valyrian look, but same with the Lannisters, it's just that when they mate with a specific family that the same traits show.

It's all basically just like genetics in our world, with a little bit of simplification/fudging to make it more manageable for the story. In the books, as in real life, dark hair typically prevails over lighter hair, because dark hair requires only one dominant gene, while light hair requires two recessive genes. That's why Robert's children all come out black-haired, and it's also why a Targ-Stark child could very well come out brown-haired.

If we don't have any Targaryen/Stark children examples from the books, how will we know?

The only thing we need to know for the theory to work is that it's possible. Based on the appearances of previous Targ descendants, there's no reason to think that a Targ-Stark child would not come out looking like a Stark.

[The Promised Prince]

The only exception to these genetic looks are Baratheons. Their seed is strong :cheers:

[SFDanny]

Another thing that came to my mind was Rhaegar wouldn't let Lyanna give birth without a maester or any kind of doctor/midwife right? And why ToJ? Why not inside Sunspear itself?

I've argued in the past that a maester should have been there. We see this to be the norm at Westerosi noble births. Which, if true leads to the question of the maester's identity and if he is still alive? I would not be surprised to find that Marwyn was there. I'd at least love to know when he left on his famous travels to the east. Could his departure have been from Starfall just after Ned Stark's arrival there? It would be a great way to escape questioning, and Marwyn seems just like the type of man to hang out with a certain crown prince who was obsessed with prophecy. Anyway, I think it very, very likely Wylla was there in the capacity of wet nurse/midwife/servant, and I'm holding out hope that we find that Marwyn was there as well. It would make sense.

[Arya Targaryen]

I wonder how readers would feel about Jon if he becomes increasingly resentful when he finds out the truth and ends up hating Ned.

I think that's definitely a possibility until someone (Sam?) points it out that he did exactly the same with Mance's son.

[Darth Rivers]

Why do you need evidence? Jon will be king for the simple reason that that's the worst possible ending.

[The Red Hand]

I think that's definitely a possibility until someone (Sam?) points it out that he did exactly the same with Mance's son.

That's a good point, the event with Mance's kid just puts more fuel on the "Jon is a Targ" fire.

[dragontamer]

IMO It's one thing to believe that R+L=J is true and another to believe that Jon was legitimized. The latter being an effort of the R+L=J theory supporters to explain the actions and decision making of both Rhaegar and Lyanna which contradict entirely with their personalities. The biggest argument in favor of Jon being legitimized is the presence of the KG at the TOJ but...

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater or lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides"

What we learn from this is that the KG do as ordered without questioning the order and that their first duty is with the king.

There are 3 possibilities here : 1. the KG at the TOJ were able to communicate and learn news about the war. In this case they ought to leave the TOJ after the Battle of the Trident and head to KL where their primary duty lies with Aerys especially at such a perilous time. Even if they were at the disposal of Rhaegar to command with Aerys approval, after Rhaegar's death as their vow demands they should go back to Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella and Elia. The argument about Jaime being there is hilarious. He was but one KG and only 16.

2. the KG were not able to communicate. Then they wouldn't know about the Sack or Viserys escape to Dragonstone so just followed the last order given to them but this doesn't make Jon legitimate.

3. This one I like. The KG were not robots deprived of emotions. They were order by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna and Jon while R was alive and continued after his death. Abandoning a newborn and his sickly mother in the middle of nowhere to chase a lost cause (KL already sacked, most Targs dead) is inhumane and they were honorble men and friends of Rhaegar (Dayne). It woldn'd be the first time that the KG have a mind of their own.

Not to mention that I still don't get why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. I get that he may loved her but not need her for the PWWP prophecy and the whole Ice and Fire issue. He had Aegon.

Jon significance in the story is interwined with the North and imo is highly unlikely that in the end there will be an Iron Throne for a legit heir to sit on.

[pitakon]

switched at birth. sam is the real son of R + L.

[The Promised Prince]

... I still don't get why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. I get that he may loved her but not need her for the PWWP prophecy and the whole Ice and Fire issue. He had Aegon.

Jon significance in the story is interwined with the North and imo is highly unlikely that in the end there will be an Iron Throne for a legit heir to sit on.

Maybe TPTWP should be born of ice and fire? hint: Targs: Dragons, Dragonkings, Fire and Blood. Stark: Kings of the North, Winter is coming.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You read that right.

Even if R + L = J is true Jon isn't still a Targaryen. Why?

Everybody who's assuming R + L = J is true will obviously claim that Jon is Targaryen. Well by blood that would be correct but he'll be illegitimate in Targaryen name and claim to the throne.

What do you guys think?

(As people said before) Rhaegar could be married to Lyanna or he could have legitimized him. So he is not a Targaryen bastard.

ETA:

Not to mention that I still don't get why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. I get that he may loved her but not need her for the PWWP prophecy and the whole Ice and Fire issue. He had Aegon.

The dragon has three heads, he needed another child and Elia could died if she had more children

[The Promised Prince]

But Rhaegar could be married to Lyanna or he could have legitimized him. So he is not a Targaryen bastard.

Again, this "marriage" does not have enough supporting evidence. But the exchange between Ned and the KG in the ToJ is really suspicious too.

[The guy from the Vale]

Again, this "marriage" does not have enough supporting evidence. But the exchange between Ned and the KG in the ToJ is really suspicious too.

The KG at the ToJ. Bloodraven (warging Mormont's raven) calling Jon 'King Jon Snow'. The irony in dozens of lines in Jon chapters that would simply disappear if Jon was illegitimate (starting with his comment in AGoT Jon I that 'bastards are not allowed to sit at the king's table': Joffrey the bastard sits at Robert's table, while Jon the king sits at the smallfolk's table...)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Again, this "marriage" does not have enough supporting evidence. But the exchange between Ned and the KG in the ToJ is really suspicious too.

I thing that because Lyanna was a daughter of a lord, because he knew what had happen with Blackfyres and because he knew that a bastard has no rights he had married her.

The most suspicious is why KG were at ToJ. They should be with Rhaella, or with Elia or with Aerys.

The whole R+L=J is a theory until Martin says otherwise the only thing that we can do is suggesting.

The KG at the ToJ. Bloodraven (warging Mormont's raven) calling Jon 'King Jon Snow'. The irony in dozens of lines in Jon chapters that would simply disappear if Jon was illegitimate (starting with his comment in AGoT Jon I that 'bastards are not allowed to sit at the king's table': Joffrey the bastard sits at Robert's table, while Jon the king sits at the smallfolk's table...)

And my personal fav the bastards can't hurt a prince.

[The Promised Prince]

The KG at the ToJ. Bloodraven (warging Mormont's raven) calling Jon 'King Jon Snow'. The irony in dozens of lines in Jon chapters that would simply disappear if Jon was illegitimate (starting with his comment in AGoT Jon I that 'bastards are not allowed to sit at the king's table': Joffrey the bastard sits at Robert's table, while Jon the king sits at the smallfolk's table...)

Jeor's raven calling jon "king" would be too obvious I don't buy it. The Joffrey and Jon scene about the table, what if there's really nothing about it? Nothing to ponder about. Nothing.

Example: an author writes something like "Johnny looked at the window and saw the curtains are blue."

What we think the author is saying: Johnny sees everything with sorrowful eyes, his heart is in pain and he is full of despair.

What the author really meant: The damn curtain is blue.

[dragontamer]

Maybe TPTWP should be born of ice and fire? hint: Targs: Dragons, Dragonkings, Fire and Blood. Stark: Kings of the North, Winter is coming.

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon", he said to a woman mursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?" "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song", the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire".

[danm_999]

Jeor's raven calling jon "king" would be too obvious I don't buy it. The Joffrey and Jon scene about the table, what if there's really nothing about it? Nothing to ponder about. Nothing.

Example: an author writes something like "Johnny looked at the window and saw the curtains are blue."

What we think the author is saying: Johnny sees everything with sorrowful eyes, his heart is in pain and he is full of despair.

What the author really meant: The damn curtain is blue.

You're seriously making the Occam's Razor argument?

The bird says (verbatim) "KING!" "SNOW! JON SNOW! JON SNOW". Even Jon remarks how odd this behaviour is, and that it never uses his full name, which means we're supposed to remark how odd that behaviour is.

This is Martin whacking readers over the head with R+L=J. You "not wanting to buy it" I sense has more to do with obtuseness.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jeor's raven calling jon "king" would be too obvious I don't buy it. The Joffrey and Jon scene about the table, what if there's really nothing about it? Nothing to ponder about. Nothing.

Example: an author writes something like "Johnny looked at the window and saw the curtains are blue."

What we think the author is saying: Johnny sees everything with sorrowful eyes, his heart is in pain and he is full of despair.

What the author really meant: The damn curtain is blue.

According to this Raven called Jon King because he is the king.

After all from his class who would be a better king?

ETA:

"He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".