Frey Pie Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 It's a shame you have to pickle otherwise sound judgments with over the usual over the top Stannis hatred.I'd say between Ashford, Duskendale, always being given Tyrell's van, what we saw of him with Renly and Kevan's remarks we have as much proof Tarly is a good general as we do for nearly anyone who hasn't been attended a great deal by a POV character.As good as Robert, Stannis, Robb, Tywin and Ned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 Hey, it is not my fault that the books show lots of hints that Tarly is a serious, capable commander and that Stannis has lost it. Nor was it my choice to compare the two here in this thread.I agree some of Stannis' moves in Dance were good and some mystifying such as wanting to march on the Dreadfort, storm WF etcetc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 As good as Robert, Stannis, Robb, Tywin and Ned?Probably better than at least a few of them, particularly if you consider that Robert, Stannis and arguably Ned seem to be past their prime.Still, for all his insistence at picking at me, Bran the Cute is correct: to the extent that we can expect evidence of good commanding capability from any character that isn't often seen by POVs, we got it for Tarly. It may be that he doesn't deserve his reputation, but Kevan, Renly, Mace Tyrell and other people who ought to know have consistently considered him a good commander and the flat fact is that far as we can tell he has been consistently succesfull. That is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 As good as Robert, Stannis, Robb, Tywin and Ned?I wasn't making a judgement as to exactly how good he was, just saying, from all we know, he is clearly one of the better generals in westeros and that we have enough evidence to make that judgment. I'd actually say we have rather more direct evidence for Tarly's competence than we do for Ned's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 and how many battles did stannis win? either he is under siege or his fleet is destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Tarly has the rep of having defeated Robert at Ashford (it was Ashford, right?).After the Blackwater (in which he took no part, as Garlan Tyrell led the van) Tarly proceeded to take out the Northern Foot with Helman Tallhart and Robett Glover at Duskendale. The Northern Foot consisted of between 3,000 and 6,000 men (depending on wether you believe the Wiki or the books lol), and Tarly greatly outnumbered them. Yet still he took heavy losses.Really, that's mostly it. He seems competent as a soldier (meaning both commander and fighter), but not that exceptional. And he's quite a piece-of-shitty person.why? because of Sam? he's right, Sam is not fit to be a lord. He probably should have let him be a Maester, but I agree being a Maester is an insulting career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 and how many battles did stannis win? either he is under siege or his fleet is destroyed.How about when he smashed the iron fleet at Fair Isle.Or routed Mance Rayder in the battle before the wall?And really, Stannis' achievements seem to have been stated ad nauseam, on loads of threads in just the last couple of weeks, so I'm a bit surprised you're asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 would i ask the question if i know? just because it had been mentioned in a million threads as you have mentioned doesn't mean i have read it. the battle against mance rayder counts? i thought it was like mounted armored knights charging into people with bones, stone and wood for weapons. that doesn't sound like something you add to your resume when applying for the job of the greatest commander. smashing iron fleet does sound impressive for an admiral or its equivalent. so people are comparing a field general and a naval general. great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 how about minor minor border skirmish, the guy is from the Reach so skirmish with the dornish is common.Skirmish with the dornish common? lol were did you get that from? Before the conquest maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Bread Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Just because Randyll has only won 2 battles that we know of doesn't mean he is a poor commander. I' m pretty sure he has won other victories, hence why other chracters think so highly of him. Besides I think the battle of Ashford was a pretty significant tactical victory as it forced Robert to abandon the Stormlands and allowed the Tyrells to invade it, preventing the Stormlands from aiding Robert during the rest of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 would i ask the question if i know? just because it had been mentioned in a million threads as you have mentioned doesn't mean i have read it. the battle against mance rayder counts? i thought it was like mounted armored knights charging into people with bones, stone and wood for weapons. that doesn't sound like something you add to your resume when applying for the job of the greatest commander.The wildlings have giants and mammoths and shit too. And there are twenty thousand of them or so. Yes, Stannis' men are of much better quality (but badly outnumbered). I didn't say it was the greatest victory ever, but I wouldn't say it was a picnic either. You were asking what battles Stannis had won and that one certainly counts in my book.smashing iron fleet does sound impressive for an admiral or its equivalent. so people are comparing a field general and a naval general. great.There are no specialized admirals in westeros for the most part. The great lords command both the fleets and the armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 You cant say a victory does not count because his men are superior, that makes no sense. If you start making excuses for why a victory does not count, then no one would be an able commander becaus there are a million excuses. The only time I could see this type of argument working is if you are so greatly outnumberd there would be no chance of victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 I wasn't making a judgement as to exactly how good he was, just saying, from all we know, he is clearly one of the better generals in westeros and that we have enough evidence to make that judgment. I'd actually say we have rather more direct evidence for Tarly's competence than we do for Ned's.You could look at it like that but with the way Ned played a huge part in the winning of two wars, the one battle we know he won decisively and his sons excelling in the field of battle i would say we have just as much, more even, evidence of Neds prowess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 The problem is there are not many military povs, off the top of my head brienne, asha, and jon are all that come to mind. And none of them are really involved in pitched battles or in contact with generals. So the evidence for anyone is really not there, we know robert is good, we know stannis is good. And we know Tywin is ok, but other then that we have no clue. You could say ned but there is little evidence of him being that good, battle of the bells was the only battle he won iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 The problem is there are not many military povs, off the top of my head brienne, asha, and jon are all that come to mind. And none of them are really involved in pitched battles or in contact with generals. So the evidence for anyone is really not there, we know robert is good, we know stannis is good. And we know Tywin is ok, but other then that we have no clue. You could say ned but there is little evidence of him being that good, battle of the bells was the only battle he won iirc.Only one that we know of but i cant imagine it was the only one he commanded in two wars. Id add Robb in there. But yes you are correct. I think part of the reason i like Jaime so much is because he gives us a slightly militant view of things. I really think hes showing potential as a commader lately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 They called Randyll Tarly the best soldier in the realm. That's a pretty loaded statement, because it doesn't state he's the best overall war leader, but also it doesn't state he's personally the deadliest warrior in the realm. Yet, it clearly places him as among the best at doing a job that's somewhere in between. Maybe he won't have the political acumen combined with strategic planning that you see in someone like Tywin Lannister, nor would he equal the hands-on killing skills of Loras Tyrell or Barristan Selmy. Give him command of an army, and a strictly military task to accomplish and he'd be one of the best choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFfC Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Just want to mention that there is more to being a great commander than fighting and winning battles. Perhaps Tarly is adept at disciplining, drilling, and training his men. Maybe he has a great talent for marching quickly through various kinds of terrain. Maybe he is very good with the logistics of mainting a huge army such as finding suitable areas to camp, managing outriders and scouts to keep track of enemy movements, managing rations, dealing with disputes within the army, keeping all of his subordinates happy, keeping everyone in the loop and spreading information effecitvely, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Well, as I said the military stuff, he knows. But the political intrigue stuff may not be his strong suit (quills and ravens, so to speak). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harty Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 At the end of ADWD, he is made Justiciar, and Kevan comments he is more dangerous than Mace. That's pretty impressive in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyrions sliced nose Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Meh i just want to see sam face his father again and tell him the fuck off.Sam can be all like 'Ive killed an Other, the fuck have you done in comparison?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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