Is Hot Pie overrated as a baker?

[LuisDantas]

Of course he isn't. Hot Pie himself says so.

[pitakon]

Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if Hot Pie is a secret descendant of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar.

[The Fallen]

` I have to agree with Khal Pono, who seems to know his cornbread. What can we expect from a kid who's selling pies in the slums of King's Landing? Who even knows what his mother was putting in those pies?

[Lady Meera Reed]

My friend's uncle's fiance came from a family of bakers, and was said to have been inside the actual bakery, when they were making pies (!!!). She clearly is an expert about these things, especially since Westerosi baking = real life baking, in which average non-bakers like us don't know anything about.

Sure, some of us might've gathered some info from recipe books/baking shows, but really baking is a complex skill, you don't just manhandle the dough & automatically know how to produce some yummy tart. Only people like my friend's uncle's fiance know what good pies taste like, obviously.

Anyway, I read her a description of Hot Pie's pies, the reaction (or non-reaction) of the characters who tasted them, as well as some of their testimonials. She said that no way that would've tasted remotely good. And she knows.

[Pod The Impaler]

In Arya's POV chapter, she reflects that Hot Pie doesn't do anything well except bake and sing.

I say, however, that fans have made far too much of Hot Pie's baking prowess. First of all, as a street urchin in King's Landing, we know that his mother made the pies and he sold them in the streets, yelling "Hot Pie! Hot Pie!" wherever he went. More pieman than baker, really. He might have watched his mother make pies and helped her from time to time, but I don't think he had enough experience or time with his mother to truly learn the secrets of pie baking.

Second of all I think our appreciation of Hot Pie is somewhat exaggerated by the fact that there are very few competent bakers appearing as characters in ASOIAF. If there were POV chapters about the master cooks of Illyrio's manse in Pentos, or about the artists in the Red Keep's kitchens who made pie full of doves, do you think Hot Pie's wares would even be a blip on our radar? No, ser. While we're on the subject, you may note that one of Joffrey's last utterances was that the pigeon pie he ate was rather "dry," but do not be fooled by this. He was at that point suffering from the effets of the "Strangler" potion, and every other indication we have is that the pies of the Red Keep's kitchen were delectably moist.

Back to the subject at hand, we also see Hot Pie making tarts and cakes in the kitchens of Harrenhal but he is essentially a baker's helper, one of many servants who work in the kitchens. It is the master baker's recipes that he uses, not his own. It's not as if he is running the kitchens himself. Also, note how Amory Lorch or Roose Bolton don't make any comment about the quality and deliciousness of the bread coming out of the kitchens; this shows us that Hot Pie's work, even under the instruction of a master cook, was middling at best.

Finally, Hot Pie informs the innkeeper at the Kneeling Man inn that his breads are tough and unpalatable and that he knows how bake much better bread. This may be true, but keep in mind that this scene takes place in the war-ravaged countryside where baking ingredients such as flour and leavening are scarce and those that can be found are of appallingly low quality. Also, the innkeeper was never trained as a baker, so of course his bread is subpar. While there is no doubt that Hot Pie is knows his way around the oven, almost anyone's baking would be better than the inedible loaves being baked when Hot Pie arrived.

Hot Pie comes from the "Lower" school of King's Landing cookery, though. He may not have the experience with unusual delicacies or spices as one sees in the "Higher" school. If he had promise and they saw his natural talent, sure, they might have recruited him into the Upper school, to eventually work in the Red Keep, but there is a classist bias in their cooking techniques that perhaps would never suit him. He is a populist, and the Upper school stresses elite artistry as much as actual taste.

As for his experience at Harrenhal, he showed promise, but to the wrong people. Amory Lorch was more interested in ursine vetrinary nutrition. Gregor Clegane's tastebuds were addled by milk of the poppy. Vargo Hoat and his men were primarily not even Westerosi, so their idea of gourmet food was probably stewed dog fetus and durian fruit.

As for Roose Bolton, his peculiar culinary and beverage tastes were well known. Anything you eat in a Bolton-run establishment should be considered suspect.

[Yurii Hightower]

Hot Pie is The Baker That Was Promised.

[WindOfWinter]

Wow, didn't realize this forum was populated by man hating femogynists.

[Ghost of Groat]

In Arya's POV chapter, she reflects that Hot Pie doesn't do anything well except bake and sing. <snip>

zomagawd! You win!

More please!

[Winterfell is Burning]

SHUT UP! HOW DARE YOU?

HOT PIE IS THE COOK THAT WAS PROMISED, AND HIS IS THE BREAD OF ICE AND FIRE!

[The Fallen]

He is Azor A'hotpie.

[oakenhelm]

The sexism is strong in this one. Would you say the same thing if Hot Pie had been a girl instead? Of course not-then it would have been perfectly natural-nay expected-that she be good in baking. You'd be bending over to find excuses for her-her age, her displaced childhood, her poverty-but because Hot Pie is male, he is doubly scrutinised.

Ha! and gay, no doubt :drunk:

[Pod The Impaler]

He is Azor A'hotpie.

No he is a false saviour - he serves The Great Oven.

[LordBloodraven]

Khal Pono, have you ever been in a bakery. Or anybody else in this board. You guys don't even know how to bake a bread, yet you are here whining about Hot Pie's talents. Why do you think he's named Hot Pie? Surely Hot Pie is a better baker than Jaqen H'ghar, the name says it all. This is ridiculous, I won't let you downgrade Hot Pie's abilities (did you read the description of those strawberry tarts that Amory Lorch liked to eat at nightfall with a glass of milk) because you know nothing about the bakery industries. My best friend's parents own a spaghetti bar since 30 years ago (before it became mainstream) so I won't suffer your criticisms of Hot Pie's savoir-faire without textual evidence

[Natalie_S]

I think Hot Pie gets a free pass only because he's clearly one of GRRM's favourites.

He stretches baking rules to make Hot Pie's pies more sympathetic than they would deserve.

GRRM prefers to underline all the compliments Hot Pie receives and purposely avoids to mention all the telling-off he surely must have got from Harrenhal bakers (nobody is perfect afterall).

So this is a case of reader manipulation.

[Darth Visenya]

How dare you!!, Hot Pie is quite obviously an excellent baker as well as a Targaryen.

[WindOfWinter]

Khal Pono, have you ever been in a bakery. Or anybody else in this board. You guys don't even know how to bake a bread, yet you are here whining about Hot Pie's talents. Why do you think he's named Hot Pie? Surely Hot Pie is a better baker than Jaqen H'ghar, the name says it all. This is ridiculous, I won't let you downgrade Hot Pie's abilities (did you read the description of those strawberry tarts that Amory Lorch liked to eat at nightfall with a glass of milk) because you know nothing about the bakery industries. My best friend's parents own a spaghetti bar since 30 years ago (before it became mainstream) so I won't suffer your criticisms of Hot Pie's savoir-faire without textual evidence

I think one of the reasons Hot Pie takes so much heat (pun FULLY intended) is because the logistics behind bakeryism in a medieval European society makes so much of what he does impossible, or at the least, improbable. People need to remember this is a book and sometimes you need to suspend your disbelief, which many people are just unable to do; this of course somehow all comes back full circle to Pono's disparaging views of man, and men, in general.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

My name is Hot Pie, and I am of the dough.

[Darth Visenya]

My name is Hot Pie, and I am of the dough.

Blood of the oven.

[Eyron]

I think Hot Pie gets a free pass only because he's clearly one of GRRM's favourites.

He stretches baking rules to make Hot Pie's pies more sympathetic than they would deserve.

GRRM prefers to underline all the compliments Hot Pie receives and purposely avoids to mention all the telling-off he surely must have got from Harrenhal bakers (nobody is perfect afterall).

So this is a case of reader manipulation.

You are probably right, we and the author see Hot Pie through gold tainted glass.

In fact, considering the way Hot Pie is described as a not too brave young man, his physical appearance, and his lacking fighting skills, that he has survived all the starvation, fighting and war in the Riverlands, is nothing less than Deus ex Machina.

[WindOfWinter]

My name is Hot Pie, and I am of the dough.

Not even going to bother responding to this after reading your views in the 'Are Weirwoods Overrated as Trees' topic.