Did Jon "steal" Val?

[Toshio.Keepiru]

I think Val is Jon's kind of woman but when she said Shireen should die, it made me think 2 things:

1. Ideological clash, this relationship will never work

2. If Shireen's greyscale does indeed cause some kind of plague, Val would be right and Jon my concede to her

Also Jon is kind of a major player in this series, Val is kind of not. I find that generally, pairings are of equal status/importance/specialness (this does not mean birth though, for instance Asha and Quarl fit this idea because Quarl is one of the best swordsman on Pyke).

The thing is we don't know yet how Val found Tormund on a mount of rather mediocre quality (iirc) without becoming some predators food / dead playtoy. Either she is extremely lucky or there is something about her real capabilities that we do not know.

It'll be interesting to find out either way.

[ViserionsFire]

When the Free Folk were before the Wall and being offered the opportunity to go through and be awarded the Gift lands south of the Wall, didn't they have to part with their valuables? Each person or family gave whatever gold, jewel or valuable they had to cross though the tunnel. To these people, that may have meant that these items were taken from them. The meaning of "Taken" also could mean "Steal". If so, all of the Free Folk would see that Jon was responsible for stealing not only their valuables but "taking" them beyond the Wall. So perhaps all the Free Folk consider Jon with some allegiance, and should he understand and accept what he has done on their behalf, would accept Jon as their King.

[bemused]

When Jon draws his sword to protect Val ( and Dalla ) during the battle , some wildlings might see that as stealing her.. Later her, when she's Stannis' captive, Jon takes her from the quarters Stannis had kept her in and sets her free to act on his behalf..Even more might see that as stealing her.

I think that Val has a special status among the wildlings and is not for regular " stealing "... No wildling would take her by force. She must agree from the get go. But even from that perspective, everyone would know Jon wouldn't have forced her.. she went willingly. If she's a priestess ,the wildlings will already see them as having at least a working partnership. She's put her faith in him... and if...if..GRRM follows the Norse model a little further , it might result in a marriage and life partnership .

[LitaJ]

You know, I believe that for Val, Jon has indeed "stolen" her, though he has not yet realized what he has done. while reading ADWD I kept waiting for Selyse to call Val to announce her engagement with Ser Patrek (who might be trying to steal her when he got dismembered) in public, to which Val would reply that she can't get engaged because according to her people's customs she was already married... to the Lord Crow :dunno:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Congrats on your first post, and welcome to the forum!

I keep on thinking about Ghost interfering with stealing Val. It would be funny if he was doing what Jon couldn't actually do, but subconsciously wanted to do.

[Frey Filet]

In order for Val to view herself as being 'stolen' by Jon, I believe a more drastic action would need to be taken on Jon's behalf, especially considering Val's hard-headed nature (she comes off as more headstrong than Ygritte IMO). I get the sense the OP's original evidence points towards Val wielding her sexuality as a means of self-empowerment; her constant flirtations seem to be aimed at provoking Jon into some brash action on her behalf, possibly to coerce the 'steal.' IIRC she never truly submitted to her former lover Jarl via any action or statement, and thus seems to view attractive men as amusements. Jon seems to be her latest catch.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

As long as she believes he did, Jon should be hitting that.

[Lion of Judah]

Jon knows the wildling culture he even explained it to Stannis, he knows that he stole Val but he doesn't want to admit it to himself.

[The Wolves]

As long as she believes he did, Jon should be hitting that.

Seriously he should

[Ghost's Shadow]

He'd better wake up in her bed (healing).

Think first thing he'd check for is whether he's gelded or not? :lol:

[Henry the Lighthearted]

Reading it from this perspective I would say Jon has for sure caught her fancy and he won't deny she stirs him too. On the other hand, Jon probably hasn't been qualified as stealing her in the way the wildlings would believe, and if so I have a feeling that it's a two part process which Jon hasn't fulfilled entirely (second part being consumation). Why I say this is Tormund making the joke wouldn't make sense or have any humor if the deed was done and known to be done, it would be more of a "by the Gods Jon go see her before she's stolen from you".

I am a fan of where this line leads, though not a believer of the possibility :(. Though to throw it out there for debate that line about gelding, "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he’s been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.", might also be a double entendre meant to mean that, should he choose to be with her, his vows to her will be easier to keep, essentially he'll be hers only once she's "taken" his balls :S. Or as others have said, Lord Snow is ok but Lord Crow can go f himself. Also why I love her character, everything she says is loaded. The comment strangely also implies that Jon can only resist her if he's gelded (kind of a shove it Tormund he's the one that wants me).

If this does work out somehow and the theories are true, she'd make a great Ice to his Fire.

[LitaJ]

Thanks for the Welcome Ghost's Shadow! :)

I am a fan of the idea that the wolves reflect a little more than just the emotions of the Starks, showing a little of their little hidden desires as well with it all combined for their instinct to threats to "their" Stark

Jon has likely not really considered that what happened might have been 'stealing' from a free folk perspective, just thinks she was captured as a POW. But I think that Val is well aware of the fact she has sufficient "evidence" to be able to use the stealing in her favour if she so wishes...

I really do hope that if Jon returns that it is not something connected with the Red God but rather with the Old Gods... and that means that as Val is connected with them she would be nearby... :love:

[The Taxman]

Didn't read this whole thread but I think one of the biggest reasons Jon is attracted to Val is that Val reminds him of his mother (even though he doesn't know who is REAL mother is) even still, I have no doubt Lyanna was just as quick witted and "wilding beauty" as Val is. I think this may be another clue that Jon is Rhaegar's son... these guys like their women wild.

[silentwanderer]

I think Jon got stabbed while one of the Queen's Lords was trying to steal Val.

Not that it would make any difference to the wildlings: they both failed unless Val says otherwise.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I think Jon stole Val, I think she's toying with him, waiting for him to get himself okay with the idea. Every one of the Wildings seem to know about Jon and Ygritte and that leads me to believe that they view him differently than they view the other Crows. The Wildings clearly don't have a problem with Jon/Val. I think Val is simply giving him time to wrap his head around it. For that fact, I think the Wildings already view him as sort of an authority figure. As for Val not being accepted as the Lady of Winterfell, Stannis' men seem to be almost fighting amongst themselves for the opportunity to marry the woman As far as Southern men go it doesn't seem as if it would matter that much that she's a wilding. And Stannis considers her a Princess, she doesn't seem to consider herself that way but by Westeros' standards she clearly IS a princess. I agree Jon will find himself healing in Val's bed. His time 'dead' will likely be similar to Bran's time out after his fall, but unlike Bran Val will let Ghost stay close unlike Lady Cat who didn't realize keeping the wolf close was good thing until Bran's attack. This time together will ease Jon's thoughts on many things, the NW and his Vows, Val, and his overall duty. They're as good as married in my opinion.

[bemused]

I believe Val is a priestess. Jon doesn't realize the extent of her exalted status among the wildlings. No wildling would dare steal her without her prior consent..otherwise she wouldn't have been safe to go to find Tormund. She's attracted to Jon , and I think has already decided that he's the strong leader she wants to play male leader of the people to her female lead.

I agree with Broke Howard's idea s on Jon's healing, but maybe add a bit of Morna the warrior witch's healing , since Val is not a healer.. You'd think she'd know something about wounds ...And with her weirwood mask..I sort of wonder.. We've seen the weirwood seed paste aid Bran in his greenseeing , but wierwoods have preserved BR's life far beyond it's normal span ....might there be other medicinal uses of the weirwood , e.g. poultices , tea brewed from the leaves , etc.? ... A wildling witch once healed Mance when he was gravely injured.

[King Jon and Queen Val]

I love this imgae of Jon having unknowingly stolen Val and she's trying to get him to realise.

Val: "So, that daughter of Tormund's... she was stolen by that Longspear guy."

Jon: "Yeah, suppose."

Val: "Yeah... y'know, he didn't even know that he'd stolen her..."

Jon: "Yeah, suppose."

Val: "Really sweet that you gave me a giant to protect me... almost like you're trying to protect something that you've stolen."

Jon: "Yeah, suppose."

Val: "Gods above Jon, admit you stole me!"

Something like that... y'know, if we lived in a world where good things happen to us.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Why does everyone insist Jon would WANT some political alliances with the south. I couldn't imagine he or any other Northman would trust anything that comes out of their mouths anyway. He'd likely do what Ned and other Northern lords do, take hostages.

[Boss Wyman Manderly]

When the Free Folk were before the Wall and being offered the opportunity to go through and be awarded the Gift lands south of the Wall, didn't they have to part with their valuables? Each person or family gave whatever gold, jewel or valuable they had to cross though the tunnel. To these people, that may have meant that these items were taken from them. The meaning of "Taken" also could mean "Steal". If so, all of the Free Folk would see that Jon was responsible for stealing not only their valuables but "taking" them beyond the Wall. So perhaps all the Free Folk consider Jon with some allegiance, and should he understand and accept what he has done on their behalf, would accept Jon as their King.

Your right when Mance was taken Tormund became the strongest swords so to speak, Tormund knelt to Jon not Stannis and some Wildings told Jon that they swore whatever he swore. Later after receiving the "Pink Letter" the Wildings all but proclaim him their King and Lord before he was stabbed. IMO Jon's has been playing the game of thrones and should have broken his vows long ago.

[James March x2]

So.. having a central role into winning against WW then being marginalized and disappearing with his own newly found love Val and his Wildling friends north the wall.. that completely fits Jon's character.

Is Val really promised to a southern liege lord?

When the Free Folk were before the Wall and being offered the opportunity to go through and be awarded the Gift lands south of the Wall, didn't they have to part with their valuables? Each person or family gave whatever gold, jewel or valuable they had to cross though the tunnel. To these people, that may have meant that these items were taken from them. The meaning of "Taken" also could mean "Steal". If so, all of the Free Folk would see that Jon was responsible for stealing not only their valuables but "taking" them beyond the Wall. So perhaps all the Free Folk consider Jon with some allegiance, and should he understand and accept what he has done on their behalf, would accept Jon as their King.

The free folk has given up freedom twice in a row?

I don't know, it seems to me like a bit too far stretched. They are the kind of people would only recognize a strong leader - jon could be seen as that - but that also calls himself like that and takes decisions in favour of his own "peers".