Did Jon "steal" Val?

[Tagganaro]

She's a hostage though so she doesn't have much say. She wasn't going to behave with Selyse but Jon told her that it was serious. She can't play around in her position.

I think Val is very well-spoken for a wildling. Mance did say that he found her and Dalla on the way back from WF.

Certainly, but she didn't have to go see Selyse. No one forced her to, she offered to do it to Jon herself. She knew that would entail kneeling.

A lot of curiosity about Val and Dalla for sure. I don't know if you read any of the threads about them being some kind of intermediaries to the Old Gods or some kind of priestesses, but it is certainly suspicious that Val was somehow able to make it through the Haunted Forest all alone on a half-blind horse in the middle of Winter and somehow find Tormund without dying or being killed by the Others. And Dalla seems far too wise compared to the other wildlings we have met.

[ARYa_Nym]

Certainly, but she didn't have to go see Selyse. No one forced her to, she offered to do it to Jon herself. She knew that would entail kneeling.

A lot of curiosity about Val and Dalla for sure. I don't know if you read any of the threads about them being some kind of intermediaries to the Old Gods or some kind of priestesses, but it is certainly suspicious that Val was somehow able to make it through the Haunted Forest all alone on a half-blind horse in the middle of Winter and somehow find Tormund without dying or being killed by the Others. And Dalla seems far too wise compared to the other wildlings we have met.

True. She did want to help him even if that meant kneeling to Selyse. I think she might just want to make things better for herself. Selyse had control at that moment since Stannis was gone. It could be good for her to have Selyse's favor even though Selyse found her insolent when they actually spoke. Selyse was trying to help her and could try to make things run relatively smoother for Val.

[Ragnorak]

I love the Intermediaries to the Old Gods thread. One of my biggest curiosities is whether or not Val has a role to play in Jon's healing/resurrection based on that thread. He is stabbed right in front of her tower. This whole idea that Jon might have stolen Val just adds fuel to that curiosity. Plus I confess to a certain prurient interest in a supernatural Mel/Val cat fight.

[brashcandy]

I love the Intermediaries to the Old Gods thread. One of my biggest curiosities is whether or not Val has a role to play in Jon's healing/resurrection based on that thread. He is stabbed right in front of her tower. This whole idea that Jon might have stolen Val just adds fuel to that curiosity. Plus I confess to a certain prurient interest in a supernatural Mel/Val cat fight.

Let them take each other out; Dany will be there to claim the spoils :P I like your idea a lot Ragnorak, but there's a sense I get from Jon/Val that it's all about what could have been. Jon could have been happy with her, being Lord of Winterfell with a beautiful, accomplished wife, but in resisting that temptation I think he puts Val aside as well for good. I can see her playing a role in his resurrection/resuscitation for sure though. Perhaps the "intimate" connection between them might be useful somehow in this process?

[lojzelote]

I love the Intermediaries to the Old Gods thread. One of my biggest curiosities is whether or not Val has a role to play in Jon's healing/resurrection based on that thread. He is stabbed right in front of her tower. This whole idea that Jon might have stolen Val just adds fuel to that curiosity. Plus I confess to a certain prurient interest in a supernatural Mel/Val cat fight.

Wow, I've missed that thread. What is the general idea?

(Could it be that Val is one of those women who make human sacrifices to the old gods? :devil: )

[ARYa_Nym]

Wow, I've missed that thread. What is the general idea?

(Could it be that Val is one of those women who make human sacrifices to the old gods? :devil: )

Poor Shireen if so.

[Swordsaint]

Yes! Why else would you guard a woman with a giant? He was preserving dat ass.

[Ragnorak]

Wow, I've missed that thread. What is the general idea?

(Could it be that Val is one of those women who make human sacrifices to the old gods? :devil: )

The basic idea is that Tormund is a religious leader and Dalla and Val are priestesses (Norse priestesses are Vala.)

Some of the supporting ideas are that Val claims to have "heard" that Jon didn't kill Jarl, but Jon is the only survivor so who did she hear it from? Val seems to know what Mel sees in her fires. How? Val sings which is frequently associated with magic. Ghost's curious reaction to her. That she somehow knew exactly where to find Tormund and knew the exact day she'd be back. It is an excellent thread.

[lojzelote]

Poor Shireen if so.

No, my poor little Shireen no.

I swear, she was born to suffer. Where is fairness in that? :frown5:

I was thinking more along the lines of what fandom's reaction would be.

Fandom: Don't go with Melisandre, Jon. She's undead, fanatical and always wrong. She'll rape you and take your life energy! Go to Val, because she's hawt and wildling-wise!

Later:

Val turns out to be a priestess who cuts down unarmed prisoners and sick children to get the blessing of gods.

Fandom: o_O

[lojzelote]

The basic idea is that Tormund is a religious leader and Dalla and Val are priestesses (Norse priestesses are Vala.)

Some of the supporting ideas are that Val claims to have "heard" that Jon didn't kill Jarl, but Jon is the only survivor so who did she hear it from? Val seems to know what Mel sees in her fires. How? Val sings which is frequently associated with magic. Ghost's curious reaction to her. That she somehow knew exactly where to find Tormund and knew the exact day she'd be back. It is an excellent thread.

Thanks, I'm going to read that now! :)

[Jon Flowers]

_{I think that she does indeed consider herself to have been stolen by Jon, but a large part of it is that she likes him. If all of the same things had happened with say Ser Alliser rather than with Jon, I'm not so sure she would be quite so eager to have been stolen. The way Jon is though (exactly like I was at his age), I'm not sure that the situation has even dawned on him at all until just recently.}

[Longspear Ryk]

Im not one or shipping but jon and val are totally gona wind up together ....

[ARYa_Nym]

No, my poor little Shireen no.

I swear, she was born to suffer. Where is fairness in that? :frown5:

I was thinking more along the lines of what fandom's reaction would be.

Fandom: Don't go with Melisandre, Jon. She's undead, fanatical and always wrong. She'll rape you and take your life energy! Go to Val, because she's hawt and wildling-wise!

Later:

Val turns out to be a priestess who cuts down unarmed prisoners and sick children to get the blessing of gods.

Fandom: o_O

LOL, well for the first part Ygritte did cut down an unarmed captive. Val seems to be the one that doesn't like children afflicted with greyscale. I think she would kill Shireen if she had her way but I think Shireen will get eaten by something instead.

[Budj]

I really like this topic. And I am also a believer in val being more than meets the eye. I can see them being together in the future. I think the wildlings take Jon away from the wall and val resurrects him. This thought is motivated by my desire for j + v and to prevent Mel from having anything to do with saving Jon.

[Tagganaro]

True. She did want to help him even if that meant kneeling to Selyse. I think she might just want to make things better for herself. Selyse had control at that moment since Stannis was gone. It could be good for her to have Selyse's favor even though Selyse found her insolent when they actually spoke. Selyse was trying to help her and could try to make things run relatively smoother for Val.

I'm not sure about this. You could be right, but I'm not sure how much control Selyse actually has. Jon openly disobeys her on several occasions (including letting Tormund and his band through without accepting the Red God as their religion). And I'm not sure Selyse actually wants to "help" Val at all- She wants to marry her off to one of Stannis's lords and wants to make her very subservient to men (like Selyse is).

I love the Intermediaries to the Old Gods thread. One of my biggest curiosities is whether or not Val has a role to play in Jon's healing/resurrection based on that thread. He is stabbed right in front of her tower. This whole idea that Jon might have stolen Val just adds fuel to that curiosity. Plus I confess to a certain prurient interest in a supernatural Mel/Val cat fight.

Yeah a supernatural cat fight would be awesome. Should we add Mel to the list of potential Jon suitors? Now we have a whole love boat type situation going on with Jon, Mel, Val, Mance, Tormund. We can even add Dany and her suitors as well- Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, Victarion/Euron, and Missandei. Very interesting :cool4:

Let them take each other out; Dany will be there to claim the spoils :P I like your idea a lot Ragnorak, but there's a sense I get from Jon/Val that it's all about what could have been. Jon could have been happy with her, being Lord of Winterfell with a beautiful, accomplished wife, but in resisting that temptation I think he puts Val aside as well for good. I can see her playing a role in his resurrection/resuscitation for sure though. Perhaps the "intimate" connection between them might be useful somehow in this process?

haha. BC always has to be looking out for Dany. :agree: There's definitely that element to their relationship. As I said earlier, it might just be that Val is the one that got away so to speak for Jon, might just be there for atmospherics to drive home the point of how depressed Jon is about not taking Stannis's offer. But it seems like there's more there. That being said, I have no idea what's gonna happen with Val + Shireen, which had to be introduced for a reason. Jon would never forgive her if she did something to Shireen.

[Grimwolfe]

i remember ghost taking a particular liking to Val which may reflect their future relationship (or be a symbol of him stealing her but not knowing)

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not sure about this. You could be right, but I'm not sure how much control Selyse actually has. Jon openly disobeys her on several occasions (including letting Tormund and his band through without accepting the Red God as their religion). And I'm not sure Selyse actually wants to "help" Val at all- She wants to marry her off to one of Stannis's lords and wants to make her very subservient to men (like Selyse is).

From Selyse's POV she is helping her. She was going to help her learn what was expected of a southron lady. If Val wants to kneel then she has to learn what behavior is expected of a kneeler if she's going to be the Lady of Winterfell (although imo the Northern lords won't accept this) or some lord/knight's wife It's similar to Catelyn wanting Arya to go to KL for much needed refinement because she'll be married one day. That's what noblewomen think is helpful. In Selyse's opinion if she marries a knight she might do much better than what she was doing before living as a wildling.

[Tagganaro]

From Selyse's POV she is helping her. She was going to help her learn what was expected of a southron lady. If Val wants to kneel then she has to learn what behavior is expected of a kneeler if she's going to be the Lady of Winterfell (although imo the Northern lords won't accept this) or some lord/knight's wife It's similar to Catelyn wanting Arya to go to KL for much needed refinement because she'll be married one day. That's what noblewomen think is helpful. In Selyse's opinion if she marries a knight she might do much better than what she was doing before living as a wildling.

Agreed and well said. I do however wonder if the Northern Lords would ever accept Val as their lady. The Northmen/wildling relationship is very interesting to me. They do have some things in common- particularly Old Gods, holding guest right sacred, and I'd argue a tradition of relatively strong, independent "wildling" type women (for example Lyanna Stark, the Mormont women, Arya, probably eventually Sansa as well, Alys Karstark has a little bit of that too).

I also wonder about the point of including the little digression with Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn. Will they ever be accepted? I happen to think that marriage signals the incoming Northern societal change where the wildlings will be accepted back into Westerosi culture due to the greater threat of the Others and the need for more people to replace all the dead ones from the wars and such. So I do wonder if Val would ever be accepted, say if Jon somehow becomes King in the North and proclaims her his Queen...Is it possible you think?

[Ragnorak]

I did forget to mention that with R+L=J then you have some potential parallels with Rhaegar stealing a wild northern princess. Hard to guess how deep those might go without much of the original Rhaegar and Lyanna story but it is worth throwing out there.

[ARYa_Nym]

Agreed and well said. I do however wonder if the Northern Lords would ever accept Val as their lady. The Northmen/wildling relationship is very interesting to me. They do have some things in common- particularly Old Gods, holding guest right sacred, and I'd argue a tradition of relatively strong, independent "wildling" type women (for example Lyanna Stark, the Mormont women, Arya, probably eventually Sansa as well, Alys Karstark has a little bit of that too).

I also wonder about the point of including the little digression with Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn. Will they ever be accepted? I happen to think that marriage signals the incoming Northern societal change where the wildlings will be accepted back into Westerosi culture due to the greater threat of the Others and the need for more people to replace all the dead ones from the wars and such. So I do wonder if Val would ever be accepted, say if Jon somehow becomes King in the North and proclaims her his Queen...Is it possible you think?

I don't think so personally. It's one to have one as Lord of Karhold although Harrion may still live.

There are also tons of lords who hate wildlings. Jon said that wildlings would turn Ned's bannermen against Stannis. Imagine making one Lady of WF. If Mors Umber wants to drink from Mance's skull I doubt he would want to serve a wildling so closely associated with Mance.

I think they have some similarities but wildlings seem like anarchists to me and the Northmen may be somewhat savage but they are kneelers and live a life of order. So no pillaging, no stealing/raping daughters, etc. Marriages must be arranged. Bloodlines/line of succession creates order and stability.

I think it would be better for Jon to marry one of the Northern bannermen's daughters. I don't think Jon will ever actually rule the North though unless he's Rickon's regent.