Did Jon "steal" Val?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Yes ,he stole her but he isn't aware of it .

[Mithras]

What is with Jon unintentionally stealing women?

[C.T. Phipps]

I thought Val hated the idea of being with Jon despite everyone trying to set them up. She threatened to geld him.

[Mithras]

I thought Val hated the idea of being with Jon despite everyone trying to set them up. She threatened to geld him.

I do not ship Jon/Val but I have to admit that she was flirting at that instance.

[Ingelheim]

I do not ship Jon/Val but I have to admit that she was flirting at that instance.

Their few interactions consist of endless flirting...mostly from her part.

[Han Snow]

I don't ship Jon with anyone in particular. Liked him with Ygritte, I'd like to see him with Val, but if he is the true Sun (the Lightbringer) of ASOIAF, then his true Moon must be someone else...

Daenerys.

So like it or not.

But yeah, Val seems... yummy?

[Julia H.]

Yes ,he stole her but he isn't aware of it .

What is with Jon unintentionally stealing women?

LOL. Women choose. ^_^ The wildling way is that by the time the guy notices, he will have stolen the woman. (Native wildling boys may learn to be more careful than Jon though.)

More seriously, if Jon stole Val (and I think he did), he did it three times:

1) During the battle by the Wall Jon was guarding Val and the new-born baby with a sword, protecting them from everyone else. Then he took them to Castle Black (his home).

2) He stole Val from Stannis in the scene discussed by the OP. (The symbolism there is beautiful, and the raven is quite explicit about calling Jon a thief.)

3) After Val's return with Tormund, Jon tells her that her new place is in a tower guarded by Jon's own men (and a giant). He apparently does not intend to return her to Stannis, instead he chooses a place for her, where he, Jon, is the Lord. Val interprets it as protection.

Other points:

"The Wall killed Jarl."

Now consider this quote:

"The Wall is mine."

Isn't the Lord Commander the man most closely associated with the Wall? And what is it that Val had to be sure of?

Finally, while Jon may be unaware of the implications of his actions, it is not only the wildlings who "ship" him with Val. The queen's men have had this suspicion for a while, and in Jon XIII, he probably confirms the suspicion when he cautions them against trying to marry Val off.

Has Val been told, Your Grace?" asked Jon. "Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman's kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy."

Who exactly is Val's "kin" to give the unwanted suitor a savage beating? Val's only living relative we know of is a baby, but she may have another "suitor". Ser Patrek probably thinks that the warning is in fact a barely disguised threat. And who knows, Jon may betray here more than what he is consciously aware of.

[Noelle Snow]

^^ Yep. He tells Ser Patrek point blank that if he's caught he's risking a savage beating by the woman's family. Which is exactly what happens as SP is brutally beaten to death by Wun Wun, someone placed to guard Val by...Jon. The other "suitor", which would qualify him as "family", yes?

[Avlonnic]

I find it interesting that Jon informs Stannis, Selyse, Melisandre, and everyone at the Wall that Val must be 'stolen' for a marriage. Val is an anomaly among the Free Folk; it was Val who stole Qarl, not the other way around. Dalla and Val seem very - exceptional - in many ways so I am interested in what will become of Val now. (I wonder if Dalla 'stole' Mance when they met on the way back from Winterfell.)

Of course it is also of interest that Selyse has taken it upon herself to arrange marriages for Val and the other free women/girls. Stannis considers Val of great value as a political instrument, and it appears that Selyse is encroaching on Stannis' purview for the benefit of her Queen's Men rather than his kingship. I can't imagine he would be overjoyed to return from battle and discover Selyse has dispensed of Val and Winterfell while he was away.

[Avlonnic]

LOL. Women choose. ^_^ The wildling way is that by the time the guy notices, he will have stolen the woman. (Native wildling boys may learn to be more careful than Jon though.)

More seriously, if Jon stole Val (and I think he did), he did it three times:

1) During the battle by the Wall Jon was guarding Val and the new-born baby with a sword, protecting them from everyone else. Then he took them to Castle Black (his home).

2) He stole Val from Stannis in the scene discussed by the OP. (The symbolism there is beautiful, and the raven is quite explicit about calling Jon a thief.)

3) After Val's return with Tormund, Jon tells her that her new place is in a tower guarded by Jon's own men (and a giant). He apparently does not intend to return her to Stannis, instead he chooses a place for her, where he, Jon, is the Lord. Val interprets it as protection.

<snip>

This thread, including your points, makes a compelling case. Very nice.

[Lord BitterRaven]

As much as I want to see Jon hook up with Val, I dont think that it's gonna happen and there's a major and obvious reason why. The fact that the show didn't bother to cast Val says to me that while she plays a key role in ADWD, she won't be key to the conclusion of asoiaf. This is kind of a bummer for me so if any of you can offer a more possible reason, please do

[bemused]

The show will do what D&D will.... But even for the show, season six would not be too late to cast her. They could simply introduce her in a different way.

In the books, I feel we've only seen the tip of Val's iceberg, so far. The major revelations about her will probably come in book 6. Even so, important as I feel she will be to Jon, there's no guarantee that she'll live until the end of the story.

If that should be the case, the show could simply leave her out.

Obviously, I hope that's not the case, but regardless, I'm sure there will be more Val to enjoy in the books.

[239JMFL34109]

As much as I want to see Jon hook up with Val, I dont think that it's gonna happen and there's a major and obvious reason why. The fact that the show didn't bother to cast Val says to me that while she plays a key role in ADWD, she won't be key to the conclusion of asoiaf. This is kind of a bummer for me so if any of you can offer a more possible reason, please do

I don't get this line of thinking at all. Books and tv shows are so different that they just going to have to be differences to tell a story on either. The tv show also likes to take one character's role and combine it with another so they don't have introduce more people or pay more actors.

[Sithis]

I think he definitely "stole" Val, unintentionally. I personally would like to see them end up together assuming "dying" releases Jon from his vows, or the NW ceases to exist.

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe she considers he stole her when he took her "prisoner" during Stannis attack on the Wildlings camp. But she needs something more to convince him. This is why she asked if he killed Jarl. She wants him, but she dislikes the Crow and his vows. I believe something else will happen, that will be more explicit. I have the fancy of Jon warging Ghost and defending Val against Melisandre. In fact, I would see Ghost killing Melisandre. I'm definitely for them ending together.

[Bastetcat]

I suppose but she threatened to geld him once if he stole her so IDK. She might flirt with him because it's safe. He has his vows so he won't do anything about it. Sure he slept with Ygritte but it's not the same because he was doing it for the NW.

I think she might have liked him and wanted confirmation that he didn't kill her lover, Jarl because that would make it weird or maybe would feel like a betrayal.

He also said that he might have had her so he sees the opportunity as past tense.

EDIT: I did think that they were about to kiss in that scene and Jon pulled back to restrain himself.

 

"Sure he slept with Ygritte but it's not the same because he was doing it for the NW."

That comment made my day. Thank you.  :drunk:

[Bastetcat]

 

Yes. Regardless of if the story is true, the wildlings seem to believe it is. Otherwise, I can't really explain why wildlings show such reverence towards Starks considering their history of war. Like I'm thinking for example of Mance's spear wives in Winterfell, one of whom gets really angry when Theon starts to recite the Stark words.

Haha, yes I forgot all the Manderley names begin with W.

Normally I think it would take gradual steps to integrate the wildlings in, but I'm not sure there's gonna be any time for it. If the Others invade soon then I imagine the North and wildlings will be forced to put their differences aside. Maybe the Karstark/Thenn marriage will help along with Jon and RIckon who are close with wildlings. If Jon is made King in the North/Regent of Rickon and names Val his Lady, I think people would have to follow along. I base this on the scene at the Wall after the wedding where the Northern Hill Lords who came to the wedding were complaining about Jon allowing the wildlings through and Jon was just like "Shut up, I'm a son of Eddard Stark" and they listened lol. He could say that to anyone.

 

"Haha, yes I forgot all the Manderley names begin with W"

 

Yeah, it is lake a wave: WM  Like the sea. 

[The Dragons Hand]

If not, there's still time. :cool4:

[Lord Varys]

I don't think the whole concept works if you do it unintentionally. This is actually part of the very rapy part of wildling 'rape culture' which is about physically taking and keeping what you want. Ygritte explains that you can have any woman you want in that society as long as you can keep her down and from cutting your throat in the night. Craster knows how to do that quite well, apparently.

 

Now, the more nicer free folk guys play with this whole thing, and there are also women seducing and flirting with men, and that's what happens between Val and Jon. Considering that Jon cannot marry a woman there is no point in trying to steal one, and no real point in not trying to live up to his vow for change. Ygritte isn't dead for such a long time, and one expects that Jon still mourns for her and misses her. If his sexual urges return full force and if Val is willing (and surviving whatever is going on outside her Hardin's Tower right now) they might eventually begin an affair. But she would possibly of more use if Jon (or Stannis) use her as bargaining chip in an alliance with some noble house rather than having fun with her. Jon already has the wildlings, there is no need to bind himself even closer to them.