Bolton/Stark Conflict

[Winterfell is Burning]

It doesn't make sense for the Boltons to have been Kings until 700 years ago, people are just misreading the text. The fact they were defeated for the last time 700 years just means their last rebellion was put down at that time. It's impossible that they would resist almost alone against Winterfell + White Harbor + Barrowlands + Umber lands etc, for 7300 years. We know that areas a lot more powerful (like the Hightowers in Oldtown) didn't resist that long.

We also know that some Kings in the North were expansionist, conquering the Neck (and that was 4000 years ago), the Sisters, going to war and possibly conquering part of the Vale, etc, so it wouldn't make sense for them to try to expand without having dominated the entire North first. And of course, it would be virtually impossible to resist the Andal invasion without an united North.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

The skins of several Stark Lords are said still to hang in the Dreadfort as horrific tapestries, remnants of a time when Bolton and Stark were mortal enemies. Roose Bolton was, perhaps, Robb Stark's most prominent bannerman, maybe behind Greatjon Umber. Roose took an opportunity from Tywin Lannister and Old Lord Walder Frey to betray Robb, and personally transfix him to the ground with a steel blade, and thus receive lands, wealth, an alliance with the Iron Throne and the Freys, the Wardenship of the North and the legitimization of his deranged and cruelly sadistic bastard son, Ramsay. The Boltons are an old and cruel Northern family, resentful of their subjugation by the Starks, and awaiting the chance to renew their ancient bloodfeud when the situation favours them.

Ramsay hunts women with his dogs, flays them when they're caught, has his dogs rape them repeatedly, and finally has them eaten alive, once he's hung their dripping skins up on the Dreadfort's Walls. He turned Theon Greyjoy into a shell of a man by flaying him finger by finger, forcing him to eat rats raw and live in utter fear of him. He locked his wife, the Lady Hornwood, in a tower and starved her to death. Toward the end, it is rumoured that she ate her own fingers to survive longer. He forced his own wife, Jeyne Poole, to have sex with his hounds. He's a brute, an awful, evil man. And he's gonna be played by SIMON from MISFITS, IWAN RHEON. YEAAARGHHHH

[Frey Pie]

It doesn't make sense for the Boltons to have been Kings until 700 years ago, people are just misreading the text. The fact they were defeated for the last time 700 years just means their last rebellion was put down at that time. It's impossible that they would resist almost alone against Winterfell + White Harbor + Barrowlands + Umber lands etc, for 7300 years. We know that areas a lot more powerful (like the Hightowers in Oldtown) didn't resist that long.

We also know that some Kings in the North were expansionist, conquering the Neck (and that was 4000 years ago), the Sisters, going to war and possibly conquering part of the Vale, etc, so it wouldn't make sense for them to try to expand without having dominated the entire North first. And of course, it would be virtually impossible to resist the Andal invasion without an united North.

Oh i dont think that they were rival Kings for that long but were always a nuisance, kind of thorn in the foot, of the Starks until they were put in their place. I think they are just opportunists and when such expansion as you pointed out occurred they took advantage of it and tried for independance

[Winterfell is Burning]

Oh i dont think that they were rival Kings for that long but were always a nuisance, kind of thorn in the foot, of the Starks until they were put in their place. I think they are just opportunists and when such expansion as you pointed out occurred they took advantage of it and tried for independance

Yes, the most likely is that they were something like the Yronwoods are in Dorne: not Kings for a long time, but still seeing themselves as such, and trying to get their revenge any chance they get.

[Naathi Prince]

The Boltons may have been Kings long ago, and I expect they were probably the last rival Northern Kings to the Starks, but I doubt there has been a Bolton King since the Andal invasion. The North would have needed to stick together to resist the Andals, and in the end I think this is probably why they invaded the Neck as well. The Starks became Kings of the North, and the Boltons, being a large and powerful House, were their main rivals and rebelled the most.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Boltons may have been Kings long ago, and I expect they were probably the last rival Northern Kings to the Starks, but I doubt there has been a Bolton King since the Andal invasion. The North would have needed to stick together to resist the Andals, and in the end I think this is probably why they invaded the Neck as well. The Starks became Kings of the North, and the Boltons, being a large and powerful House, were their main rivals and rebelled the most.

It's probably something like this.

Also, the idea of the Boltons flaying their enemies as a way to literally duplicate the "skinchanging" talent is one of my favorite macabre theories.

[Naathi Prince]

It's probably something like this.

Also, the idea of the Boltons flaying their enemies as a way to literally duplicate the "skinchanging" talent is one of my favorite macabre theories.

This is really good, and I kind of believe it might be true.

[King Doug]

I think you could ask the heretics about the titles. IIRC they went into some detail theorising what each meant but i cant remember what they came up with. It also depends on the timeline, wether the Starks 8000 years figure is wrong or not. If it is 700 years is a long time. Remember also that the Dreadfort is almost unassailable.It took four years i think to take the last time they rebelled. The Boltons also seem to have the second most populous lands in the North after the Manderlys

To be fair, the Dreadfort was never actualliy taken. They sieged the castle into near starvation and the Bolton lord bent the knee before everyone died.

But I don't believe that the Boltons were formerly kings. We've never heard them styled as such. I always just thought of them as Lords who hold a good chunk of land and have many subjects that are bent to their will through fear. In the south, many of the various lords styled themselves kings until the Andal invasion. The north didn't really have smaller kingdoms. But before the Andal invasion the title 'King' was really synonymous with 'Lord' in my opinion. They just didn't have to pay homage to a liege lord.

[Darth Rivers]

Eh... What makes you think the Boltons weren't kings? There had been hundreds of small kingdoms before, so it makes sense that the Starks took time to subdue the entire North. Especially if you consider the alternate timeline proposed by the maesters. Not everything that is said in the books should be taken at face value, and making arguments out of silence is dubious at best. It's not like the Starks became kings through democratic elections, afterall.

ETA: My theory - Starks gobble up a large part of the North in endemic warfare, but so do the Boltons. After a period of indecisive warfare, the Boltons are finally weakened enough to accept Stark overlordship.

They are not styled kings in the books because by the time of Aegon's landing they were long since tenants to the Starks, who had become kings in what went on to be known as the North, after centuries of unified rule.

[Naathi Prince]

To be fair, the Dreadfort was never actualliy taken. They sieged the castle into near starvation and the Bolton lord bent the knee before everyone died.

But I don't believe that the Boltons were formerly kings. We've never heard them styled as such. I always just thought of them as Lords who hold a good chunk of land and have many subjects that are bent to their will through fear. In the south, many of the various lords styled themselves kings until the Andal invasion. The north didn't really have smaller kingdoms. But before the Andal invasion the title 'King' was really synonymous with 'Lord' in my opinion. They just didn't have to pay homage to a liege lord.

That is what a King is.

Eh... What makes you think the Boltons weren't kings? There had been hundreds of small kingdoms before, so it makes sense that the Starks took time to subdue the entire North. Especially if you consider the alternate timeline proposed by the maesters. Not everything that is said in the books should be taken at face value, and making arguments out of silence is dubious at best. It's not like the Starks became kings through democratic elections, afterall.

ETA: My theory - Starks gobble up a large part of the North in endemic warfare, but so do the Boltons. After a period of indecisive warfare, the Boltons are finally weakened enough to accept Stark overlordship.

They are not styled kings in the books because by the time of Aegon's landing they were long since tenants to the Starks, now kings in what would later be known as the North.

Your theory holds merit, I think the places in the North with the most "stark loyalty" are the places they subdued first. There's also the Barrows around Barrowton which are supposed tombs for ancient Kings of the First Men.

[King Doug]

That is what a King is.

I agree, the two titles can be synonymous. The Boltons may not have styled themselves kings, but in reality they were. It just feels like Ramsay would have mentioned the Boltons used to be kings in one of his ramblings with other characters. Roose might have even mentioned it.

[Darth Rivers]

That is what a King is.

Your theory holds merit, I think the places in the North with the most "stark loyalty" are the places they subdued first. There's also the Barrows around Barrowton which are supposed tombs for ancient Kings of the First Men.

Exactly. Before the Starks reached the natural boundaries of expansion, which were to become known as the North, someone ruled the area. Most likely many smaller kingdoms. The relatively large power base of the Boltons despite their animosity with the Starks suggests they have been powerful before the latter came along.

I agree, the two titles can be synonymous. The Boltons may not have styled themselves kings, but in reality they were. It just feels like Ramsay would have mentioned the Boltons used to be kings in one of his ramblings with other characters. Roose might have even mentioned it.

Why do you think they didn't style themselves kings before they were defeated by the Starks? What evidence do you have? All you have is an argument out of silence.

[King Doug]

Why do you think they didn't style themselves kings before they were defeated by the Starks? What evidence do you have? All you have is an argument out of silence.

Yup, that's all I got. They could have been 'kings' and probably were. But I haven't heard that title thrown around yet. That's all it is to me though, just a title. Even if they weren't called kings, they were acting as kings. I'm pretty indifferent about it

[Darth Rivers]

Yup, that's all I got. They could have been 'kings' and probably were. But I haven't heard that title thrown around yet. That's all it is to me though, just a title. Even if they weren't called kings, they were acting as kings. I'm pretty indifferent about it

But there is absolutely no reason to think that they weren't called kings, while there is ample reason to think that they were kings, both in practice and theory.

[Naathi Prince]

But there is absolutely no reason to think that they weren't called kings, while there is ample reason to think that they were kings, both in practice and theory.

yea why wouldn't they call themselves Kings?

[Frey Pie]

Its true that we havnt heard of them as Kings but its likely they were. We learned in Dance that the Blackwoods were kings and the Brackens also claim Kingship

[bluehair]

yea why wouldn't they call themselves Kings?

That is what he is saying. He thinks they are kings.

[King Doug]

But there is absolutely no reason to think that they weren't called kings, while there is ample reason to think that they were kings, both in practice and theory.

No argument here

[The Snowman]

Actually the North would not have had to be united to fight off the Andals in truth. When two enemies are both faced by the same threat they will form an alliance and join their power.

The Host of the Two Kings in Aegon's Conquest. The Gardner King and Lannister King were enemies essentially yet they came together to fight the greater threat. If they had beaten the Targaryens then they would have gone back to being warring territories. Why couldn't the Starks and Boltons do this with the Andal invasion?

I don't think the Starks defeated the Marsh King until after the Andal invasion. Maybe its not mentionedthat the Boltons were Kings because for a lot of the book they are under Lord Eddard Stark and then in a rebellious kingdom under King Robb, so maybe it wasn't that best idea to mention the Boltons were also Kings in an environment when Kings are everywhere.

Also has anyone got any idea why the Stark Kings were called The Kings of Winter then the King in the North?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Actually the North would not have had to be united to fight off the Andals in truth. When two enemies are both faced by the same threat they will form an alliance and join their power.

The Host of the Two Kings in Aegon's Conquest. The Gardner King and Lannister King were enemies essentially yet they came together to fight the greater threat. If they had beaten the Targaryens then they would have gone back to being warring territories. Why couldn't the Starks and Boltons do this with the Andal invasion?

I don't think the Starks defeated the Marsh King until after the Andal invasion. Maybe its not mentionedthat the Boltons were Kings because for a lot of the book they are under Lord Eddard Stark and then in a rebellious kingdom under King Robb, so maybe it wasn't that best idea to mention the Boltons were also Kings in an environment when Kings are everywhere.

Also has anyone got any idea why the Stark Kings were called The Kings of Winter then the King in the North?

The Gardiner King and the Lannister King weren't necessarily enemies- we know that there were some wars between them, but they didn't had the rivalry the Starks and the Boltons had. And in the case of the less powerful faction (Boltons) it would be a very real possibility that they made some deal with the Andals, maybe convert in return for support, etc.