Irri's Bear Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 We all know that ASOIAF is closely linked to The War of the Roses and generally Europe in the later middle ages. I have a theory that apart from fractional warfare (e.g. Baratheon vs Lannister vs Targaryen) we may well see it develop in to a war of different religions much like the one that savaged Europe from 1618 - 1648. The Thirty Years War as it is known (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War) killed thousands and lasted... well... erm... thirty years.Now we have heard how the current conflict in Westeros was to last for many years to come, and that many people would die.So do you agree with me that we may see the conflicts turn into more of a battle of religions. Rhollor vs Old Gods vs the SevenAnybody agree?Irri's Bear :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think it is very probable. Certainly, religion plays a big role here in these books, just like the real world.Irri should be proud to have such a bear :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't think so, only a few people actually worship R'hllor so there is no potential for a huge conflict and the followers of the old gods son't seem so fanatic to fight an religious war, but there could be a religious conflict in Essos, since followers of R'hllor attack a temple somwhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Giant Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Deffo agree, the seven are regaining their own military strength, Stannis' army is basically controlled by a rhllor priestess, Arya's no name death shit, and most importantly what the fuck is going on with all the pagan/others/old gods scenario. I think the last book could be called game of gods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't think there will be a war of religion, there is no time or place for that. The only thing that matters now is that the Others are coming and that they have to be defeated. Of course, the South pretty much don't care about the Others and the North isn't preparing itself either, but they are coming and that's it. The religious people will not fight their powerwars with the excuse of 'my god is better than yours so I'll kill you', they will make common cause. What happens after that of course is uncertain.Plus, wars in Westeros (and actually, also in the real world) are not because of religion, but because people want power and always want more and more. The fact that there is a Faith Militia again and that Melisandre is doing her thing while with Stannis, doesn't matter. What matters are their goals. They want power and nothing less or more. Their religion is a great excuse for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecandy Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You could see it that way. I see it as a war of people, with religion as their power base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irri's Bear Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think the last book could be called game of godsIt's actually going to be called A Dream of Spring!Plus, wars in Westeros (and actually, also in the real world) are not because of religion, but because people want power and always want more and more. The fact that there is a Faith Militia again and that Melisandre is doing her thing while with Stannis, doesn't matter. What matters are their goals. They want power and nothing less or more. Their religion is a great excuse for that.Firstly can I just say that (without any arrogance I kinda have a PhD) I know a LOT about the Thirty Years War and the Crusades. Religion was unconceivably more important to people back then than it is now. Yes there are theories that the original push for a crusade was to show some muscle from the pope to an ever more powerful Holy Roman Emperor, but when you consider some of the letters at the time, and the simple amount of numbers it becomes clear that religion was crucial in the crusades. Religion sparks fanaticism even today, Al Qaeda, the IRA etc. You do accept at the end that religion could be used as an excuse so surely we can say that there will still be a religious war, even if religion is merely the excuse. You have to accept that religion is certainly being militerised rapidly!I don't think so, only a few people actually worship R'hllor so there is no potential for a huge conflict and the followers of the old gods son't seem so fanatic to fight an religious war, but there could be a religious conflict in Essos, since followers of R'hllor attack a temple somwhereMost of Stannis' men are fanatical in their worship as can be seen when they become stuck in the snow en route to Winterfell.Irri's Bear x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis the Stern Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It's actually going to be called A Dream of Spring!Firstly can I just say that (without any arrogance I kinda have a PhD) I know a LOT about the Thirty Years War and the Crusades. Religion was unconceivably more important to people back then than it is now. Yes there are theories that the original push for a crusade was to show some muscle from the pope to an ever more powerful Holy Roman Emperor, but when you consider some of the letters at the time, and the simple amount of numbers it becomes clear that religion was crucial in the crusades. Religion sparks fanaticism even today, Al Qaeda, the IRA etc. You do accept at the end that religion could be used as an excuse so surely we can say that there will still be a religious war, even if religion is merely the excuse. You have to accept that religion is certainly being militerised rapidly!Most of Stannis' men are fanatical in their worship as can be seen when they become stuck in the snow en route to Winterfell.Irri's Bear xI think she meant that religion isn't responsible for every war in the world. A fair share of them but not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irri's Bear Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think she meant that religion isn't responsible for every war in the world. A fair share of them but not all.Oh! Whoops! Well yes of course wars are started for other reasons too (as seen in the War of the Five Kings)! Merely, suggesting a future religion based war, tis all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Oh! Whoops! Well yes of course wars are started for other reasons too (as seen in the War of the Five Kings)! Merely, suggesting a future religion based war, tis allI actually meant something like ''Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people,'' and that wars are being fought over power, not over religion. That's merely an excuse. (:If you know what I mean at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I actually meant something like ''Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people,'' and that wars are being fought over power, not over religion. That's merely an excuse. (:If you know what I mean at least.Religion is the impetus though. It may seem like the fighting is all about power, but it's based on the fact that people in that time frame truly believed these things. Power comes in at the more cynical higher stages but it may even be subconscious. In fact, I'm certain that a lot of people enforcing rituals meant to keep power in the hands of a few don't do it knowing that that's the purpose. As far as Westeros goes, for many fighting R'hllor wouldn't be a rational concern but one about the souls of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I actually meant something like ''Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people,'' and that wars are being fought over power, not over religion. That's merely an excuse. (:MUST.... RESIST.... TEMPTATION..... TO START.... A DEBATE.... ON RELIGION......*stabs self, burns self*Whoo, that's better.NO IT'S ACTUALLY RELIGION WHICH KILLS PEOPLE. THOSE WHO STARTED THE CRUSADES, THOSE WHO FLEW THOSE PLAINS INTO TWIN TOWERS, THOSE WHO COMMITTED THE HOLOCAUST, WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO DO SUCH THINGS IF THEY DIDN'T THINK A FAIRY TALE GOD HAD TOLD THEM TO DO SO. REMOVE RELIGION FROM HISTORY AND 70% OF THE WARS AND TORTURES AND EVILS WOULD BE GONE, BECAUSE THE MOTIVE BEHIND THEM IS RELIGION AND ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.See? I couldn't help it. I need to go to shrink. "hey doc! I'm addicted to pointing out that people's evil superstitions are evil". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irri's Bear Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 THOSE WHO COMMITTED THE HOLOCAUST,Hitler was an atheist.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hitler was an atheist....Irrelevant, even if this lie was true. Holocaust would be impossible without the ages and ages of antisemitism which was fueled by Christianity and Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It seems unlikely that there is sufficient time or a reasonable location where a major conflict over religion would come up. While the Faith Militant is growing, the only major target they would have is very far north. And all things considered that we know, the Faith and the new High Septon seems most concerned with the politics of Westeros.While at the same time Aegon has landed in the Stormlands and Dany is likely on her way in the next book.Who the Faith backs will likely be a major factor (Aegon, Dany, or Tommen or even someone else), in that many of the people of Westeros will fall back on something they know, the Faith of the Seven, as magical events and happenings become more common.Religions will be a factor in ASoIaF because religion is so tied in to magic in ASoIaF and magic is on the rise. Strictly speaking, it will not be one religion vs another, or that will be a side show, like the battle for the Iron Throne. The interconnectedness of magic, and therefore religions, will be how religion becomes a more important story element.ETA: Chill out about the real world religious debate, this is not the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irri's Bear Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 A good analysis Ser Leftwich. The only issue I can possibly see is that your "not enough time" idea is possibly wrong. Typically the books have been in the region of 1000 pages, I read somewhere on here that the next one is supposed to hit 1800 of which only 200 are written (it was on a post talking about possible release dates etc). This means that the next two books may well be more like 3 if not more. Of course this is simply accepting that there will be two more books, GRRM has changed the number of books before...I've just noticed an increase in power in the religions, and also made the link to the 30 years war. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Giant Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Couldn't agree more ser stinger, the less religous a nation becomes the less likely it is to start wars FACT.I mean I am the worlds biggest atheist, how any one can actually believe 90% of the bible is beyond me. Noah?!? Oh so you build a boat and find a pair of every animal in the world. BUT if I saw some Red Priest breathe life into a woman with her throat slit open, I'd be on my knees praising r'hllor in seconds.So with all the magic that has been awoken in Westeros there will be lots more people getting lots more religion and therefore lots more war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Associate Maester Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Of course religion is going to come into conflict as we see more overt signs of magic coming back into the world. We've got the Faith Militant, what is happening in the North, Aeron Greyjoy on a divine mission to end Euron's reign (and Euron seems to be a follower\in league with the Storm God), the Old Gods and then we have the Red Lot. I don't know that I see all out religious war, but conflict you bet. I wouldn't be surprised to see an issue pop up between a roving band of Faith Militant folks clash with the R'hllor-worshiping BwB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Giant Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised to see an issue pop up between a roving band of Faith Militant folks clash with the R'hllor-worshiping BwB.That sounds very plausible Mr Dreadfort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 MUST.... RESIST.... TEMPTATION..... TO START.... A DEBATE.... ON RELIGION......*stabs self, burns self*Whoo, that's better.NO IT'S ACTUALLY RELIGION WHICH KILLS PEOPLE. THOSE WHO STARTED THE CRUSADES, THOSE WHO FLEW THOSE PLAINS INTO TWIN TOWERS, THOSE WHO COMMITTED THE HOLOCAUST, WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO DO SUCH THINGS IF THEY DIDN'T THINK A FAIRY TALE GOD HAD TOLD THEM TO DO SO. REMOVE RELIGION FROM HISTORY AND 70% OF THE WARS AND TORTURES AND EVILS WOULD BE GONE, BECAUSE THE MOTIVE BEHIND THEM IS RELIGION AND ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.See? I couldn't help it. I need to go to shrink. "hey doc! I'm addicted to pointing out that people's evil superstitions are evil".I'm guilty of all your charges. Actually, I'm the one who serves doom and destruction to the world. And I'll have an excuse when I kill someone. 'Oh no, it wasn't me, it was my religion!' Oh well, let's not start a debate like that on this forum. Everyone has their opinion in the end, even you and me. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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