Were the Starks poor?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Re the interview statement: I agree that, whatever GRRM says in the interview, in the actual canon the Starks appear pretty damn well off (and not like the Westerosi Hillbillies either - I see that as more the Greyjoys, dueling banjos and all). I'm going with what is shown in the books on this one. :) Perhaps the Starks are "poor" compared to the Tyrells or Lannisters who seem to be stinkin' rich but actually poor? Hah. Given all the luxuries they've spent money on without batting an eyelash, and no-one complaining of their poverty in the books, they are not poor by a long shot. And they don't seem unsophisticated either. They can all read and write, and Sansa is taught a lot of artistic skills like music and dancing; Arya has an expensive fencing master. Robb never complains about how his war is tapping him out for money.

I think the actually genuinely poor and hickster Great House are the Greyjoys. They have few natural resources and are forced to steal (or think they are forced to steal; they're islands, they can build up a trading economy or do what the Scots did and use their brainpower to invent things or concepts. Maybe that will have to wait for the "Renaissance!") to get their luxuries. Also, there are the Umbers, at least one of whom is illiterate and had to make his mark instead of sign his name to a letter. But the Umbers aren't a paramount house; they really do live off on the frontier.

And when one thinks about it, the Starks' expenses to income ratio is lower than with the Baratheons, Lannisters and probably the Tyrells also. They don't hold insanely expensive tourneys. They don't have the kind of keeping-up-appearances expenses the royal house might have. They also don't have the dire poverty we've seen in Kings' Landing - up until the devastation of the war and winter, they did a good job providing for all their people. The Crownlands are very small and I doubt have a lot of fertile soil so I am sure the crown had to do a lot of charity relief - note how the famine started because the Tyrells cut off supplies.

Ned may have had fewer guards because he didn't need them very much - everyone except the Boltons and a few of their allies seems to have respected him so much they wouldn't want to harm him. In ADWD the Northerners talk about how safe and tranquil life was under Ned's rule - a woman could go outside naked and no-one would lay a hand on her. The Stark family commanded a great deal of loyalty. The Lannisters OTOH - look what happened when the mob rioted in KL. People called out Robb's name (among others) - they were sick of Joffrey and his crew. They ripped the High Septon limb from limb. The Lannisters needed their guards. Ned probably took so few guards to KL because he was used to travelling the North in peace.

[SeanF]

They weren't poor in the sense of lacking for anything.

But, they might have been financially stretched, in terms of bearing the cost of maintaining armies, and keeping castles and holdfasts in repair. Some of the bannermen, such as the Manderlys, might have been better off, in the sense that their income more comfortably exceeded their outgoings.

[Jaak]

IT must have been relative... They are poor in comparison to the Lannisters, yet rich in comparison to the Iron Islands who steal what they need...

They had enough gold or resources to outfit 18,000 men for war right after hosting the king and his followers...

They didn´t. Catelyn and Robb expressly discuss at Moat Cailin that the army was not guards paid in coin. Those 18 000 men outfitted themselves at their own cost - as part of their tax obligations. But this does not mean that Starks saw the cash whether at wartime or in peacetime.

Oh, no doubt Sansa did not have reason to complain. But then she was a big fish in a small pool.

If you compare Starks with the southern lords of the smaller group - such as Tully, Arryn, Renly Baratheon and Martell - I suspect that these 4 had about equal armies, but more cash.

[Lord of the Hillbillies]

There is a tendency to think of wealth in modern terms of coin (precious metals) as currency. There are many more economic and social factors that play into a concept of wealth. These include fealty of underlords, presence of exploitable/barterable resources (example being forests in reasonable proximity to Braavos), existing compacts/treaties/arrangements with other powers, and simple prestige (in accounting this would be termed 'goodwill', which a certain gold heavy house apparently lacks).

I think that GRRM has crafted a continent split into regions such that no one group (or house) has too many advantages. Some have excessive disadvantages such as the Ironborn and the Crannogmen but they are adapted to fit their respective environments. The North has a huge land advantage that makes defense easier since they can adopt the classic Russian defense of a controlled fallback until the opponent is stretched too thin. The Lannisters have enormous gold reserves but smaller land holdings and must, therefore, spend a much greater percentage on having military at the ready. Highgarden is reasonably large with extremely fertile land that offers few natural defenses. Dorne has severe natural defenses but limited arability.

This is one more example of a well-thought out universe where every action has myriad consequences.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

What Dorne lacks in arable land it seems to make up for in luxury products (citrus fruits, pomegranates) and trading (Dorne trades with Braavos and the Summer Isles). They have a warm climate and proximity to Essos and I bet they're making considerable bank through trade and summer fruits.

The Iron Islands could also garner wealth through trade and mercantile enterprise - that's what Venice and Holland did - but Balon Greyjoy wants the "Old Way" which isn't workable for long.

The North has plenty of natural resources like timber, wool and furs it could use. And for that matter, whoever inherits Petyr Baelish's "Sheepshit Manor" could turn a profit by making it into a sheep ranch!

And I agree with the post above that each region has its advantages. It makes me think that the long-term advantage has actually been to Dorne - it has never been violently conquered (just peacefully absorbed via marriage), it has good natural defenses and despite the lack of arable land, it has a thriving trade and export economy, so unless the rest of Westeros and Essos embargoed it, Dorne is in a very good position. The Martells were wise to keep the country out of wars and build up an economy based on trade and subtropical fruits that can't be grown anywhere else but a glass greenhouse.

The North has natural resources waiting to be developed, White Harbor for a port that could become a merchant and trading city, and is cut off from potential enemies by the Neck. Even if it is invaded by sea it would be able to defend itself if it wasn't fighting a war on two fronts as Robb had to.

I also surmise that the Westerlands, while rich in gold and minerals, may have had to import at least some of its food, as the Kings Landing famine was caused by the Tyrells withdrawing their food supplies, and no mention is made of the Westerlands being able to make that up.

So yes, every region has its advantages and disadvantages. Again, what I would love to see at the end of the series is a more Renaissance economy, based more on knowledge and trade, than the present "medieval stasis" feudal one.

[Alia of the knife]

I think given the motto of the Starks "Winter is Coming," they are likely more frugal and spend their money wisely. Remember at least in the series how Ned lost his mind over the cost of the Tourney when there was so much debt.

I also don't think that the Berantheons or the Tullys would marry them if they were poor, nor the Freys lobby to to marry in with them.

And because they've kept themselves separate and apart from KL, they haven't been blowing through their wealth, paying for the KIngs debts trying to curry favor.

I would also imagine that the Lannisters are not so wealthy now as they were, and the Tyrells will probably blow through their wealth as well to support their armies.

Lastly, I would say that the Starks will the ones on top in the end as everyone else is impoverished.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I think given the motto of the Starks "Winter is Coming," they are likely more frugal and spend their money wisely. Remember at least in the series how Ned lost his mind over the cost of the Tourney when there was so much debt.

I also don't think that the Berantheons or the Tullys would marry them if they were poor, nor the Freys lobby to to marry in with them.

And because they've kept themselves separate and apart from KL, they haven't been blowing through their wealth, paying for the KIngs debts trying to curry favor.

I would also imagine that the Lannisters are not so wealthy now as they were, and the Tyrells will probably blow through their wealth as well to support their armies.

Lastly, I would say that the Starks will the ones on top in the end as everyone else is impoverished.

:agree:

I think it's not that the Starks are poor but that they don't flaunt their wealth. They would be willing to spend money when they need/want to but they wouldn't go crazy with it.

I think the Lannisters are probably not going to be as wealthy at the end of all this. Although they could regain that wealth depending on who takes over as head of their House after Tywin.

[Jaak]

I also surmise that the Westerlands, while rich in gold and minerals, may have had to import at least some of its food, as the Kings Landing famine was caused by the Tyrells withdrawing their food supplies, and no mention is made of the Westerlands being able to make that up.

Reach is next to King´s Landing over the south bank of Blackwater Rush. Westerlands are nowhere so near - Goldenroad goes along Reach-Riverlands border for a long distance. Also there are mentions of hills and mountains to the east of Westerlands. If Westerlands had surplus food did not mean they had practical ways to deliver it.

A more important point is the complete lack, in autumn, of winter supplies for King´s Landing!

It follows that the supplies were expected to be in the countryside and continue to be transported to the city throughout winter.

Except that the supplies in Riverlands have now burnt with the homes....

[Nudu]

There are 15 millions of people in the north and the king in the north's army is 20000? Really?

[Jaak]

Scotland mobilized about 30 000 men for Flodden.

[SeanF]

They didn´t. Catelyn and Robb expressly discuss at Moat Cailin that the army was not guards paid in coin. Those 18 000 men outfitted themselves at their own cost - as part of their tax obligations. But this does not mean that Starks saw the cash whether at wartime or in peacetime.

Oh, no doubt Sansa did not have reason to complain. But then she was a big fish in a small pool.

If you compare Starks with the southern lords of the smaller group - such as Tully, Arryn, Renly Baratheon and Martell - I suspect that these 4 had about equal armies, but more cash.

Even without pay, the cost of provisioning and supplying an army of 18,000 (and their animals) would have been enormous, and that would have to be borne by the Starks.

I assume too, that the Starks' Bannermen can't be expected to fight indefinitely without pay.

[Free Northman]

There are 15 millions of people in the north and the king in the north's army is 20000? Really?

15 million is perhaps unlikely. 6 million is probably closer to the truth.

[Lewis]

The image of them being poor could be from the dark colours of their clothing and the dullness of the north, I think that the starks being a hard people didn't need to or want to use southern dyes of there clothes and kept them as there original colours, for example the dull brown of leather.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Reach is next to King´s Landing over the south bank of Blackwater Rush. Westerlands are nowhere so near - Goldenroad goes along Reach-Riverlands border for a long distance. Also there are mentions of hills and mountains to the east of Westerlands. If Westerlands had surplus food did not mean they had practical ways to deliver it.

A more important point is the complete lack, in autumn, of winter supplies for King´s Landing!

It follows that the supplies were expected to be in the countryside and continue to be transported to the city throughout winter.

Except that the supplies in Riverlands have now burnt with the homes....

Point taken about the distance from the Westerlands to King's Landing. However, my surmise is that a monarch who really wanted to alleviate famine would go to some trouble to bring in at least some non-perishable and easily transported staple foods (like root vegetables and grain) even if it meant hauling them for quite a distance. Somewhere in ADWD Jon Snow thinks about how Lysa Arryn wouldn't give any food from the Vale to the Night's Watch, so I think it's possible to bring supplies from quite a ways away.

However, Cersei and Joffrey truly do not give a rat's patooty about their starving subjects, so no effort made to supply them food from anywhere. (Now someone like Jon would go to that trouble/expense to bring food all the way from the Vale because he does care about his men.)

And yes, one has to wonder about food supplies for King's Landing during the dormant seasons. In the real Middle Ages, even in a city like London, people kept pigs and small garden plots where they could. Much food had to be imported but many people put some effort into having their own food supplies.

Another argument against the Starks being poor: Jon was able to give Arya an actual Valyrian steel sword (albeit a small one) as a parting gift. Those don't come cheap. And Theon seems to have a nice wardrobe of velvets and silks, etc. and if his father isn't sending Ned a stipend for his upkeep then he's getting some considerable spending money and it had to come from the Starks.

So the Starks were most likely frugal rather than poor and also had less need than the Lannisters and the royal family for keeping up expensive appearances. They didn't even have to import citrus fruit from Dorne - the glass greenhouses (another spendy item) supplied lemons and oranges.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Another argument against the Starks being poor: Jon was able to give Arya an actual Valyrian steel sword (albeit a small one) as a parting gift.

I don't think Needle is made of valyrian steel.

[Nudu]

Jon is a bastard and a Valyrian steel sword is "really" rare and expensive.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

My bad - for some reason I thought it was Valyrian steel. Even so, it doesn't seem like Jon was thinking about how he could afford it/afford to get Mikken the materials, and if he was really hurting for money he'd probably say something. And Ned has Ice which is Valyrian steel, and so the Starks had to have had the money for it at some point in their past.

Also mentioned a few posts back was the fact that the Tullys didn't seem to have any problem marrying Catelyn into the Stark family nor did the Baratheons have a problem with Lyanna. (If anyone had a problem it was some of the Starks' northern bannermen, though I think Lady Dustin bears a more personal grudge.)

[Phoenix21]

The Stark's are definitely looked upon by other great houses as one of the greater houses. Sansa was suppose to marry the Prince in line to the Iron Throne, then the heir to Highgarden, and finally, in which she marries, the rightful heir to Casterly Rock. Although the latter two only wanted her right to the Kingdom of the North, King Robert wanted her to marry his heir and become queen someday. Robert may have been trying to finish what had been started between Lyanna and himself, but if the Stark's were looked upon as lower status Cersei would have made a fuss over it.

[The Fallen]

` Valyrian swords are rare because Valyria no longer exists and their secrets for forging the steel were lost. I don't think they were that expensive, it's said that many houses, large and small, had Valyrian swords. The problem is that since they're no longer being made there's more demand than supply, thus making them very valuable now. And even lesser families refuse to part with their swords, hence the Lannisters not being able to replace the one they lost.

It still pisses me off that Tywin had Ice melted down and reforged. It really shows what type of scumbag he really is.