Haggon's warg 'rules' (****ADwD spoilers****)

[Ice Turtle]

I'm Arya's fan but I'm very unsettled by the fact that Nymeria considers all people a prey and Arya doesn't seem to care. One have to wonder if they already ate Weasel, poor girl.

Anyway this is winter men in their own skin eat other men to survive, Haggon's rules are ministers of social rules that enable the main population coexist with skinchangers, but Westeros is heading towards absolute chaos.

Anyway I wonder if Sansa will ever warg Sweetrobin.

[HopeForSpring]

I'm hoping to avoid an "Evil Bran" scenario, too. It is wrong of him to Warg into Hodor, I'm hoping something happens where the child learns to let that go without something disastrous happening (like the death of Hodor).

Interestingly, though, Bloodraven tells Bran not to be afraid of the Dark.Do folks think that is setting him up to be on the side of the Ice or just not on the side of R'Hllor/Mel?

[Im no Ser]

I'm Arya's fan but I'm very unsettled by the fact that Nymeria considers all people a prey and Arya doesn't seem to care.

Two points:

1) Until her trick with the Cat in the HOBW I don't think Arya has any idea that her wolf dreams are anything but dreams.

2) Arya herself is pretty feral at this point, She doesn't seem to be losing sleep over any of the people she killed herself, much less killed as a wolf.

Anyway I wonder if Sansa will ever warg Sweetrobin.

Interesting. That possibility never even occurred to me. But now that I think about it, if she's going to magically subvert someone's free will, who better than Littlefinger? Sansa could use his political power to her benefit, and who deserves it more than he does?

[Naathi Prince]

I don't get the "Arya is heartless" bit. She killed some people to save her own life, a NW deserter for justice, and an asshole merchant because she's a FM acolyte. She worries that her mother and brother will reject her because of the killing she's done.

[Ser_Patreck]

Exactly. Haggon's comments about not warging non-wolf creatures are not cast as an abomination. It's merely advice, and advice that reflects his own bias as someone who wargs into wolves.

I don't think there is any magical cost for breaking the rules. IMO the prologue is there to show that Bran is casually doing things that gave pause to someone as morally bankrupt as Varamyr.

Except Haggan lumped all together. Varamyr recalled everything as the same. They're taboos, that's all. Taboos coming from someone I wouldn't trust to make clear, sound judgement at all.

And they didn't give Varamyr pause. He did them all the same.

[lojzelote]

Except Haggan lumped all together. Varamyr recalled everything as the same. They're taboos, that's all. Taboos coming from someone I wouldn't trust to make clear, sound judgement at all.

And they didn't give Varamyr pause. He did them all the same.

No, he didn't.

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat human meat was abomination, to mate as a wolf with wolf was an abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.

30 paragraphs later:

Dogs were easiest beasts to bond with: they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, it's leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were better left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey: wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man had become a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels . . . Haggon didn't hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you nver want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even back in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were most numerous in the company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella . . .

No abomination here, see? Only advice from a more experienced skinchanger, who had his own preferences, which not all skinchangers must share.

[Tenshi]

Bran and Arya aren't good. And they aren't evil. They are humans, and humans commit good and evil. Some are worse than others. Both Bran and Arya have access to terrible power, and highly ambiguous motivations. They may misuse their power (like Bran warging Hodor), they may enjoy the taste of evil (Arya enjoying hunting humans).

No point in denying the evil in that. No point in claiming they must be evil as a result. You may deplore their evil actions. You may accept them despite their evil actions. You may love their evil actions. Might as well admit it :).

The rules: don't use warging for mind control. Don't use it for bestiality (animal rape). Don't use it for cannibalism. Most people would consider those fairly decent rules.

[Jon Flowers]

Orel was the eagle after he died and later Varmyr stole the eagle. Haggan's rules for warging are limiting but they make sense if you want to remain a part of human society. Obviously, you don't want to be salivating over dead babies, checking out female wolves in heat, or driving other people insane. That being said, I think the rules are explicitly mentioned in order to draw attention to the fact that Bran is violating them. I don't think that makes Bran evil per se, but I think w may be seeing him move beyond society.

That's true, but I think that their ultimate purpose is to keep a person sane. I might be very easy to lose oneself and forget ever being human if they dabble too much in those "abominations." I'd hate to know what baby tastes like afteral (although I have eaten fastfood on occasion).

[Matt Sand]

That's true, but I think that their ultimate purpose is to keep a person sane. I might be very easy to lose oneself and forget ever being human if they dabble too much in those "abominations." I'd hate to know what baby tastes like afteral (although I have eaten fastfood on occasion).

LOL.

I've just been re-reading Bran's first chapter in ADWD, where (as Summer) he fights off other wolves and eats dead people. Doesn't seem to bother him too much.

Then again, I don't share the general distaste for him warging Hodor. Hodor has to carry him on his back all over the North; what's a little warging.

[sunworshipper]

Hodor has to carry him on his back all over the North; what's a little warging.

The difference between being a servant and a slave.

[Brewmaster]

Warging is a tool, one that can be used for good or evil means, much like a weapon. IMO Warging somebody isnt inherently evil any more than killing someone is. Both actions used in self defense, or to protect others, is justifiable IMO.

When surrounded by others Hodor drops Bran on the ground and falls to the ground himself, without the mental fortitude to save his own skin. Bran's warging him was in self defense and saved both their lives. Ergo, warging another is not inherently "evil".

[Matt Sand]

The difference between being a servant and a slave.

In Hodor's case I'm not really sure where the difference lies. He isn't given much choice about anything.

[MavsWorld]

I'd like to still point out that Hodor still has the word Hodor and the ability to amuse himself. Bran takes this one little thing he has from him. Bran should also be thankful for the fact Hodor is willing to carry him. This whole topic is completely Bran centric, think about it from Hodor's point of view. The text suggests he has strong learning difficulties which means the world can be a terrifying place for him. Bran is one of the people he trusts. To have this person you trust invade your mind and steal your body is an ultimate betrayl and obviously causes a lot of fear. This is rape and mental abuse. Also remember Hodor is effectively a child in a man's body and cannot voice his anger or feelings about Bran's actions, which is the only reason Bran can get away with it and he knows it.

To put this in real term context, someone in an abusive relationship may stop complaining after a while and start blaming themselves, making excuses for their partner. Bran is the abusive partner, by saying what he does to Hodor is justified is similar to saying it's ok to abuse a spouse or child.

I do accept that helping Hodor to remain quiet and to fight his way up is justified, as Hodor doesn't want to die and as I have stated is effectively a child who possibly doesn't neccessarily understand what is going on, but Bran does far more than this.

[Night Gathers]

When Bloodraven told Bran he couldn't walk, but he'd be able o fly. Did that simply imply that he wasn't supposed to warg humans, hence they walk the same way Bran thinks? Because Bran can fly when he's a bird, but he can't fly when he's Bran, why would Bloodraven tell him he couldn't walk again, when he already has walked multiple times in Hodor?

[Im no Ser]

I do accept that helping Hodor to remain quiet and to fight his way up is justified, as Hodor doesn't want to die and as I have stated is effectively a child who possibly doesn't neccessarily understand what is going on, but Bran does far more than this.

Absolutely. Bran gets a complete pass for when he wargs Hodor to save lives. What he doesn't get a pass on is warging Hodor so he can explore the caves and generally enjoy a good walk.

[Im no Ser]

And they didn't give Varamyr pause. He did them all the same.

I don't have my ADwD in front of me, but isn't the spearwife the first (and only) human Varamyr ever tried to warg? And even then he only does it when he thinks he is staring death in the face. Whereas Bran is regularly warging Hodor for no better reason than to feel the ground beneath his legs.

[ChromeWeasel]

Then again, I don't share the general distaste for him warging Hodor. Hodor has to carry him on his back all over the North; what's a little warging.

Its the difference between having consensual sex with someone vs holding down and raping someone by force. Warging someone against his will is the most invasive violation possible. You take over someone else's body against his will and use it for your own purposes. It should be considered a worse crime than rape.

If Bran and Hodor are both ok with the warging; that's like consensual sex. If Bran forces himself into Hodor, that's a horrible violation. In Bran's case he does seem to work with Hodor when he warg's him, so it's more or less a questionable scenario.

[ChromeWeasel]

dupe.

[winterbird]

Rules are only rules because someone has already broken them. There is a rule about not warging into a human because someone slipped into a human and found how badly that went and the same for eating human flesh as an animal. If nobody ever did these things, there would be no need to create a rule against them. That being said, the fact that Bran (who is untrained and does not know these "rules") does these things is very natural. It just further reinforces the reason they have rules. I believe Arya has eaten human flesh as well as Nymeria, but I can't remember properly at the moment. It seems that these rules are there because it would be so easy for the warg to want to do those things.

In the case of Hodor, he doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to kick Bran out, but we've seen how poorly human-warging goes with Vymar Sixskins with a human who can resist and put up a fight. Not only is the slipping into a human taboo, but humans fight back. We also see from Vymar that certain animals have different temperaments for accepting wargs, we can assume humans who have free will do not accept warging at all.

As for the human flesh, it seems to be a rule to prevent murdering in warg form as well as technically being against "cannibalism." When Vymar breaks this rule he kills and eats his mentor. When Bran and Arya (again I think but will have to double check) eat human flesh as wolves, it is because there are so many dead bodies around due to war. They aren't specifically hunting and killing humans to purposefully eat their flesh. But perhaps if a warg does hunt and kill humans to eat it becomes something they want to do more and more. Anyhow I think this rule is to point out some of the inconsistencies with the onset of war and winter both and the teaching of the practiced wargs. The wolves themselves are finding a lot more flesh to eat (enough that our fourth book was called a feast for crows... the title itself was talking about the post-war carnage.)

There were a few more rules concerning bestiality in the warg and I would bet that if Bran or Arya were old enough to understand sex, they would have slipped into the wolf during that time too either on accident or on purpose.

But most of these rules seem to me a way to separate Human from Animal. An animal might eat another dead animal, but a human does not eat another dead human. Jojen tells us a few times that Bran is running the risk of losing himself to the wolf. I would say that having rules about what you can do as a warg not only limits the warg's power (something that is probably needed), but also helps keep the warg from losing themself in the animal because the warg must remember what the human must not do inside an animal's skin.

[Brewmaster]

I would say that having rules about what you can do as a warg not only limits the warg's power (something that is probably needed), but also helps keep the warg from losing themself in the animal because the warg must remember what the human must not do inside an animal's skin.

The problem with this theory is that Varamyr breaks these rules all the time, yet hasn't lost himself in his animals. He's just a jerk. In fact we've seen no examples, nor heard of any examples, of a skin changer that has lost themself.

The Occam's Razor answer here is simply that Haggan has no special insight. Eating people "seems" like cannibalism. Fucking as an animal "seems" like bestiality. Haggan thinks it's wrong. Simple as that. You can choose to make him the moral authority if you like, but I see no reason that he would be and, given the nature of ASOIAF it would be kind of strange if there were a moral authority.