Transformers

[drawkcabi]

I think the opposition to Rodimus is largely that he replaced a much beloved character. THat he was the prototypical hot, young substanceless dick that every show brings in to give it new life. Kind of like a movie set 1,000 years ago that brings in the 'I can do anything', modern sentiment laden woman to kick ass and take names. It's just fucking annoying. It's the same kind of character as Wheelie and Jar Jar, they brought in to sell shit to kids...but for whatever reason the execs don't realize that people hate that shit. Even the kids.

I get that but nothing is gonna make me believe Rodimus was as bad as Wheelie or Jar Jar. He was cocky as Hot Rod, but in the series as Rodimus he had substance. He complained too much, but I thought it was an interesting angle to watch this new leader have to grow into the role. When the series started Optimus had all ready been the leader for I don't know how many years and he was sure of himself. Who knows what Optimus was like right after he rebuilt from Orion Pax. It was something new, and the heavy sci-fi storylines of the third season were also added to my enjoyment of his episodes.

When I was a kid Optimus ruled, but Rodimus was ok.

[Calibandar]

What I would have liked was for the third season to have kept it's premise, namely stories set on Cybertron, but retained the characters from season one and two. They were the ones you were attached to, and the ones in the third season seemed off to me, even as a kid, and even now as an adult.

Rodimus Prime would have been ok as just another Transformers, but the way they painted him, he just wasn't much of a leader regardless of Optimus IMO. You don't want your own leader to always doubt himself, feel ashamed and nag about it. It reminds of what Peter Jackson did to Tolkien's Aragorn.

As for the upcoming movie, I hope they keep it a bit serious. They seem to realize that many of the people that will definitly be seeing it are fans who watched the cartoons and/or read the comics in the 80's. On the other hand, and this is the crux, they could also downplay it tremendously and make something like the modern cartoon series Transformers: Armada and then you will leave your seats within half an hour.

I'm sure some of it will feel childish, but I think that's inherent to it being drawn from the cartoon. But there is huge potential to set up an amazing franchise here, if the Transformers look good and the plot isn't half bad.

And no, Megatron should not just be a lasergun

[Werthead]

Comics I'm sure were nice, but much like 90% of Transformers fandom, my impressions and early memories were created by the TV show. So that also becomes my frame of reference for characters and their personalities. And while Ultra Magnus no doubt makes a better soldier than a leader, I'd still take him over that punk Rodimus.

Just from reading summaries of the comics, I think I like the concepts of Grimlock and Galvatron (personalities, not origins) in the comics better than the TV show, but I don't mind what they did with them in the cartoons either. At least the early season shit with Grimlock where he was more badass idiot than just sheer idiot. Prefer Megatron over Galvatron though.

I just can't get over the comic origin for Transformers...frankly, I think it sucks. I hate that it doesn't leave any doubt as to the sentience and presence of a soul in the transformers. I found the two great warring gods concept to just be silly. Much prefered the cartoon origin, created to be functional slaves and later overthrew their masters and warred amongst eachother.

Frankly, outside of the US the Transformers cartoon series is universally derided for its simplistic storylines and the fact it repeatedly talked down to its audience, a few noble exceptions (most notably the movie, which still kicks ass). The comics (particualarly those written by Simon Furman) did a vastly superior job of worldbuilding and giving depth to the situation. On TV every time a new Transformer had to be introduced there had to be a laborious explanation for it, since it was basically said that all of the original Transformers had either died in the war or were on the Ark and Nemesis, with only Shockwave left on Cybertron. This was OK where there were still just a few Transformers around but by the post-movie period when the Headmasters and Pretenders started show up it started getting silly. However, in the comics the scale of the war was vaster, involving millions of Transformers, and it was far more logical to simply introduce new Transformers out of the massed ranks of warriors on Cybertron. The comics origin was meant to provide a logical birth for Unicron and explain his relation to the Transformers (and I'm sorry but the explanation for Unicron in the TV series was the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen in my entire life). The warring gods thing was meant to provide an archetypal, mythological underpinning to the story. Was it slightly preposterous? Certainly. But frankly when you've accepted having 40-foot talking sentient alien robots strutting around, I think you're already prepared to accept even more far-fetched ideas.

2 more points in favour of the comics: 1) the TV series got cancelled in 1987 due to poor viewing figures, whilst the comics continued until 1991 when they were cancelled by a Marvel exec who hated them, despite the fact they were still selling more than 110,000 copies a month (rather more than X-Men and Spider-Man do today, for example).

2) the Transformers comics introduced Death's Head, the single greatest Marvel UK character of all time and one of the best Marvel characters full stop. In his first story he killed Bumblebee (okay, he got rebuilt as Goldbug, but still...)! That's hardcore. In his third story he killed Shockwave, permanantly, by shooting him in the head and crushing his brain. Not sure about the Death's Head II stuff later on, but the original Death's Head rocked big time.

[EHK for Darwin]

I rewatched some old episodes on DVD and they were incredibly simplistic. With a few exceptions, the entire first season was 'Find energy source, turn into energon, get stopped by autobots'. But they weren't meant to be much. The writers and artists had a simple job...put the product on screen. These things were 20 minute long commercials and nothing more. Which is also the reason why we couldn't see our season 1 & 2 friends anymore...everyone already owned those toys, needed to show new ones to sell more. But for what they were intended to be, they weren't half bad. And some of the episodes were remarkable. THe film of course was sheer awesome. Dark Awakening was my absolute favorite episode and probably my single favorite thing I'd seen on TV as a kid. Very dark and eerie. Almost sadistic at times. Our hero comes back as a zombie villain, autobot graveyard...that was scary shit at the time.

Too bad the animation sucked, but probably some of the best writing in the series. Think they should have let Optimus die there...cause the 'return of optimus prime' I thought sucked donkey dick...even as a kid.

[Calibandar]

Question:

What about Transformers: Energon. Would that be worth picking up if you liked the original cratoon but detest Transformers:Armada? Is Energon simply a continuation of Armada?

Also, Robots in Disguise. They're appearing on DVD now, I believe this was the Japanese version or a continuation of the Transformers. Is this worthwhile?

[EHK for Darwin]

Cal, general consensus amongst Transformers fans is that all of that shit is utter crap. If the standard transformers, G1, appealed to a 8-10 year old, that shit is meant for a 3 year old. It's got the big headed/big eyed japanese anime for the humans (that shit annoys the hell out of me, unless its porn), they also play too large of a role. They're all (from what I understand) dubbings of half assed Japanese series's with alot of the shittiest stereotypes and convetions you'd expect from their 'for kids' anime. (like them yelling 'Transform' everytime they fucking transform...hate it). General consensus is...everything since G1 (outside of Beast Wars, which has mixed but generally positive support) sucked and would be considered immature and 'kiddie' for a 5 year old.

I'd advise against it.

[Calibandar]

That pretty much confirms my suspicions. It's the exact same impression I had when watching Armada. I thought to myself "Yes, I have grown up and obviously the original cartoon series would feel somewhat childish to me now as well ( as indeed it does), but this seems geared to a way, WAY younger audience than the G1 cartoon ever was". In a way it was good to see this corroborated by many other fans.

Thing is, I just wish there was something new that was actually worth buying. I guess that only leaves the upcoming movie, which is still ages away really.

[drawkcabi]

I thought things started to get better in season 2 in regard to more adult episodes. I loved the ones that showed some of the back story of the Cybertronian wars. The defection of the dinobots was a good one, and the Orion Pax one. I liked it when they introduced the female autobots, I always thought there was something funny going on because the leader's name was Aleeta 1 and the leader of the Gobots was Leader 1, come to find out the writer of that episode was taking a potshot at Gobots.

Another favorite second season episode was the one where Omega Supreme tells his story about how he became the way he is. I love the Guardians, I just thought they were cool. And the Constructicons betrayal, way cool. Though I thought that in season 1 in the first episode with the Constructicons Megatron says somewhere that he built them on Earth? Ah well, it wouldn't be Transformers without contradictions, that would be a good name for a subgroup...the Contradictacons! Together they would join to create the super robot Oxymoron!

In any case, if season 3 had taken off where 2 had left off with the same core characters and adding new ones here and there, that would have been cool, they could still could have explored Cybertronian culture and history that way. But by changing everything the way they did it really was like a new series and the old characters didn't fit anymore. But still that season has my favorite storylines and I agree with EHK that Dark Awakening was an incredibly awesome episode.

[Werthead]

By the way, I'd recommend any major Transformers fans to pick up Prime Targets, published by Mad Norwegian Press, which is a guide to both the animated series (original and Beast Wars) and the comics. Pretty cool for getting an overview of the whole thing. And yes, the cartoon series did have more than a few different contradictions going on (two origins for the Constructicons, Thrust, Dirge and Ramjet dying in the film and then coming back in the TV series, multiple Deception jets hanging around) but I don't think continuity was at the forefront of the writers' minds.

@ Calibandar, I'd recommend picking up some of the graphic novels for extra Transformers fun. The final four (Primal Scream, Matrix Quest, All Fall Down, End of the Road) form one large epic story which is still pretty good fun to read now. Or some of the self-contained large-format British graphic novels (Target: 2006, The Legacy of Unicron, City of Fear and Space Pirates) which I think are still available in the UK and US. Some good stuff in there.

The Japanese Transformers series are unwatchable. My DVD copy of the movie has the first episode of the Takara series and it is completely unintelligible gibberish. Very, very weird.

[Xanrn]

Ok you people are seriously scarely Nerdish about Transformers.

[Calibandar]

Said the Star Wars and Steven Erikson geek

WH,

I have a Transformers guide by Simon Furman, it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075660314...glance&n=283155

Maybe you'd be interested in that as well. Prime targets seems to cover much of the same...?

Anyway, the reason I haven't picked up the trade paperbacks of the UK comics is because of the dated art. I just can't get over the fact that it looks and feels so old now. I agree with you that the stories themselves are worthwhile, but the style just doesn't cut it for me. It's like with the old X-men comics that people love.

And then on the other hand you have the new Dreamwave comics which have nice art but absurd or simply lame storylines.

[Werthead]

Dated? Oh yeah, the early issues and much of the the American ones are very poorly coloured, but the four I mentioned are where the newer type of art comes into play. The first two (Primal Scream and Matrix Quest) have a mixture of the two, whilst the later two (All Fall Down and End of the Road) have really great art throughout, the pencils of Andy Wildman and the inks of Stephen Baskervillle working really well together and although this was just before computer-controlled colouring came in, the effect isn't too far off. The British comics had a great art style throughout, arguably never bettered than in Target: 2006.

The guide you mentioned is, as I understand it, a guide primarily based on the new DreamWave and later comics, not the cartoon series or the Marvel comics, which are what Prime Targets covers. Prime Targets also has greater depth I imagine (320 pages to that book's 150-odd). That said, that book does look pretty interesting. Might have to track down a copy!

[Calibandar]

WH,

Now you're actually getting me a bit excited about the UK comics. I went up the attic and found an old Transformers issue ( Return of Megatron) from when I was a kid and it iddn't look *that* bad just really dated. If the art on the ones you mention is more modern then perhaps it could be a thing to try.

BTW the guidebook isn't based on the dreamwave comics at all. It seems to do much of the same that the Prime Target book does actually. The dreamwave comics only get a handful of pages.

[Werthead]

Which one was it? Becuase Megatron came back from the dead at least three times, the third time sparking off the most ridiculously OTT piece of retconning I have ever seen in my entire life (I won't explain it here for reasons of space and sanity, but suffice to say it is so ludicrous it actually works).

His first 'Return' was after he got knocked off a cliff by Ratchet and the Dinobots and left deactivated in gun mode for months. A human randomly found him and used him to carry out bank robberies until Megatron's repair systems kicked in and he returned to Decepticon HQ.

The second 'Return' was a cross-over story with Action Force (GI Joe) in a UK Transformers comic when he was found in the sewers of London following his apparent 'death' on the Space Bridge.

The third 'Return' was when Ratchet was tricked into visiting Cybertron to rebuild Starscream and found Megatron orchestrating the plan from behind the scenes.

[PhelanArcetus]

Once upon a time, I read all the comics. I found a website that had a scan of every page of every issue, including the GI-Joe crossover and the G2 stuff.

Unfortunately, I haven't found said page since, and eBay is a bad place to go for Transformers stuff on a budget. The graphic novels might be a better option

Of course, Season 3 had none of our old favorites because they all got killed in the movie. Or assumed killed; we know a couple survive, primarily Jazz and Bumblebee, but we see a lot of the originals get dropped, on the shuttle and at Autobot City. Shuttle kills Ironhide, Brawn, Ratchet and Prowl, and we definitely see Windcharger dead in the City.

The one problem I had with the comic origin is the fact that, for several years, the origin is "uh... you know how life evolved here on Earth? Well, imagine if gears were the building blocks instead of cells." Then suddenly Primus v. Unicron appears and we get a semi-sensible origin.

Contradictions and continuity errors will show up any time that you have multiple writers and don't spend a lot of time checking for them, but my main issue with Season 2 was the combination of lame plots (for the average episode, there were some very good ones) and sub-par art. Both seemed to go with the Aerialbots focus.

[Werthead]

One of the things I preferred about the comics was the attrition rate. Something like one-quarter of all the Transformers died during the various comics and most of them didn't come back: Omega Supreme, Sandstorm, Shockwave, Cyclonus and Scourge, Twin-Twist and Topspin, Mirage, Roadbuster, Inferno, Scorponok, Fortress Maximus and Spike Witwicky, most of the Pretenders and Headmasters...a truly insane casualty list.

[Blaine]

The Japanese Transformers series are unwatchable. My DVD copy of the movie has the first episode of the Takara series and it is completely unintelligible gibberish. Very, very weird.

My favorite weird japanese transformers cartoon was called Transformers: Scramble City which I had on bootleg VHS about 5 years ago.

Basically the story was a deathmatch between all of the combiner or gestalt robot teams - Devastator, Superion, Bruticus, Predaking, etc. Anyway, they would tear off each other's arms and for some reason run around wearing giant crowns and capes.

Japanese transformers can be weird, but sometimes in an awesome way.

It's hard to argue with anyone who named a cartoon - Transformers: Super God Masterforce.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Oh and check out these toys: Transformer Alternators. The old Transformers with more accurate vehicle models. Note: Meister = Jazz.

[kastor]

I got two words for how the Matrix situation should have been handled: Bumblemus Prime

[Slurktan]

Oh and check out these toys: Transformer Alternators. The old Transformers with more accurate vehicle models. Note: Meister = Jazz.

Those toys are kinf of neat except the odd one. Like why did they change Sideswipe so that he wasn't a lambourghini? And Grimlock is like an 85 Firebird.