Learning to Lead IV: sucess in failure? An ADWD Daenerys and Jon reread project

[butterbumps!]

About the boar - BB, you mentioned the boar. Borroq and his boar are part of the last of Tormund's band. I can't help but think that the "boar" in this series is alittle like oranges in "The Godfather" movies. In the GF movies, everytime oranges are present, something bad happens. One of many examples is when Vito gets shot selecting oranges. A couple of examples in this series is that a boar kills Robert and a boar draws Drogon to the pit. The appearance of this "wilding boar" which is in fact the warg Borroq's creature is significant as a portent of destruction.

Blisscraft, I love this! (Funny enough, I'd almost described Tormund and Jon like Clemenza and Vito earlier, lol. As opposed to my Jon-Mance:: Captain Renault-Rick Blaine).

Hi everyone, i am a regular visitor to this thread. Thanks to everyone for giving such a good insight in the leadership of Dany and Jon. I would like to ask a question. I was rereading SoS and i got to the point where Jon escape the wildling for the wall to warn about the attack and i think Jon is petty much anti-wildling at this point. When he changed so much and started to see the bigger picture and realized that the wildlling are after all all human. What happened in the mean time i don't seem to recall. Sorry for being a bit off topic.

I haven't read over that in a little while, so my memory might fail here, but I'd not thought Jon was particularly pro- or anti- wilding by that point. I think that he felt confused about his feelings, but after he's in a position to see both sides, he draws on what he considers truths and wisdoms from his time with them. It think it's only afterward that he puts it all into perspective and can see where the wildlings are right (and sometimes wrong, though that happens less and less).

[Harlaw's Book]

Hi everyone, i am a regular visitor to this thread. Thanks to everyone for giving such a good insight in the leadership of Dany and Jon. I would like to ask a question. I was rereading SoS and i got to the point where Jon escape the wildling for the wall to warn about the attack and i think Jon is petty much anti-wildling at this point. When he changed so much and started to see the bigger picture and realized that the wildlling are after all all human. What happened in the mean time i don't seem to recall. Sorry for being a bit off topic.

I think that despite Jon starting to like the Wildings more during ASOS, he still knows that their mission at that point is to overthrow the Night's Watch and wreck havoc, which Jon can't let happen. Peace wasn't option until Mance later broached the subject, and Mance only wanted peace because Plan A (taking the Wall by force) wasn't working.

On the current chapter, is it just me or was Dolorous Edd acting a bit off? He didn't seem as comfortable around Jon as he was before.

Butterbumps, I have an idea for a thread that I would like to run by you. Sorry for being off topic.

[butterbumps!]

Butterbumps, I have an idea for a thread that I would like to run by you. Sorry for being off topic.

Sure, send a PM.

Also, I picked up on Edd's behavior too. I can't tell if it's implicit disagreement with what Jon's doing specifically, or a more ominous sense of foreboding. He doesn't seem to enjoy his time with the women in the castle he's been sent to. Perhaps something happened there that we haven't seen?

[Lummel]

Dolorous Edd and a castle full of wild women? Why, what could possibly go wrong? ;)

[Blisscraft]

HB - I agree with you about Edd.

Lummel - :cheers:

[Tagganaro]

Dolorous Edd and a castle full of wild women? Why, what could possibly go wrong? ;)

The Wall gets overrun by an army of depressed, hilarious babies? Just as likely as the whole "pig army" scenario...

[Lummel]

...Horn of Joramun

Tormund tells Jon that Mance had never found the Horn of Joramun. He tells Jon that blowing Joramun’s horn would reduce the Wall to rubble, but that the horn they found came from a giant’s grave and was a thousand years old. Jon recalls the myth of the horn: “And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth.” It seems like there might be 2 horns, imo: A horn that brings down the Wall, and a horn that wakes giants from the earth, as I think these are two separate things. Jon wonders where the real horn is, feeling uneasy about being tricked, as well as the possibility that it could be blown...

I'm fairly sure that the horn of Joramun is consistently associated with waking the giants from the earth. I don't think that there are two horns. Possibly waking the giants will have the effect of bringing down the Wall or maybe the idea is that the giants will be able to destroy the Wall.

Going back to that dream of his, Jon kills a lot of people who he loved, doesn't he remember Robb with snowing melting in his hair at other times too? When Jon thinks watching the snow that they will dance anon who is he thinking of dancing with?

I was also struck by this:

There were spearwives with them, long hair streaming. Jon could not look at them without remembering Ygritte: the gleam of fire in her hair, the look on her face when she'd disrobed for him in the grotto, the sound of her voice. "You know nothing Jon Snow", she'd told him a hundred times.

It is as true now as it was then.

I find it an understated, melancholy chapter. There are those pangs of loss, feeling inadequate to the task and the resigned acceptance of responsibility that have run through Jon's ADWD chapters. It's interesting, very little happens. We've got the foreboding of violence, the smiles Jon dislikes, the bristling boar, the men and boys who should be kept apart but then this is undercut by the snowball fight - which harks back to Winterfell. Jon is alone then in how he sees the world, no snowballing for him.

If you are reading along with us then I'll warn you now that Barristan is coming, I'll post his last two chapters in about twelve hours time, just after the hour of the wolf GMT ;)

[tze]

Did anyone else get the sense that Bowen was hoping for bloodshed, though? He seemed on board in that initial meeting, before Tormund came through- he was polite, "assures" Jon, seems to accept the procession, is no longer balking or offering critique. But as soon as it's over, his tone changes sharply. It doesn't come as a surprise to me, and Jon doesn't seem taken aback, but it does seem like something that happened over the course of the day changed the way Marsh feels about the exodus. I can think of three possibilities: 1. The count was much higher than Bowen expected, 2. Bowen thought it was unseemly for Jon to spend his time exclusively with Tormund, and/ or didn't like how chummy they were, 3. The day was a success, and he was hoping for failure, to prove Jon wrong. There are probably other possibilities as well, but I can't help but feel that option 3 is why Bowen is visibly angry at the end. Especially as the earlier meeting focused on a contingency about bloodshed- that the NW was not to strike first in the event of bloodshed, but they'd be ready in case the wildlings did.

I think option 3 makes the most sense. Bowen's entire schtick is that the wildlings can't be trusted, they'll attack the Watch, they're murderous savages. He probably assumed that, without a figure like Stannis to "cow" them into submission, there would inevitably be fights between the wildlings and the Watch and the whole thing would descend into chaos. When everybody just queued up and passed through peacefully, Marsh was probably at a loss for what to do---he'd probably been mentally practicing his "I told you so" speech all afternoon.

It's interesting to compare this wildling crossing to the willding crossing Stannis orchestrated earlier in ADWD. There, Val and Melisandre were standing on ground level with Stannis, while here, both Val and Melisandre are up in towers. There, a false King-Beyond-The-Wall and (presumably) a false Horn of Joramun were both burned, and the people were forced to come near the apparently blisteringly hot fire pit, and burn bits of weirwood, before being allowed through the gate. Here, the wildlings (surrounded by snow, not fire), give up their treasures---not to the fire where they'd be pointlessly destroyed, but to the stewards, to pay for food to keep them all alive (the former sacrifice only feeds Mel's vanity and pride, and the latter sacrifice is meant to literally "feed" the wildlings themselves). There, Jon ordered out two hundred men, almost half the Castle Black garrison, and had them keep their hoods up to hide the presence of so many "greybeards and green boys" in the ranks, because Jon wanted the wildlings to fear the Watch. Here, Jon surrounds himself with only eight men, explicitly passing up all the "greybeards and green boys", and when Tormund tells Jon he wants the wildlings to see the Watch should not be feared, Ghost causes Tormund's garron to almost throw him; the idea of fear is there, but there is a trust and a comraderie between Jon and Tormund that was never present between Stannis and any of the wildlings. There, wildlings balked at the gate and ran from the Wall back to the Haunted Forest (according to Jon, almost one in ten). Here, Jon explicitly mentions that nobody, not even the child hostages, balked at the gate. There, one of the wildlings used a piece of weirwood as a weapon and was set upon by the Queen's Men. Here, one wildling stabbed another, and Toregg---a wildling---was the one to separate the two and send both back to the camp to start again (neither died, while people were literally forced to go around the weapon-wielder's body during Stannis's little show). There, everyone knelt before Stannis, while here, nobody kneels before Jon---but the wildlings give their own oaths to Jon, and seem far more likely to obey him than they ever were to truly follow Stannis.

Jon very explicitly brought only two men (one of them a wildling) to his initial meeting with Tormund, yet now he surrounds himself with able-bodied bodyguards. Why does he feel the need for an entourage now, when he has all of Castle Black at his back, yet felt no need for one when he was literally surrounded by Tormund's people in Tormund's camp, the same people now heading through the Gate? Jon's made a mental connection between Mel's "daggers in the dark" prophecy and Bowen Marsh, but if Bowen Marsh wants to attack Jon, the only logical time would be before the wildlngs fully cross the Wall. I wonder if Jon's entourage isn't meant to discourage wildling attacks, but to discourage Watchmen's attacks? Jon makes sure that Bowen himself is very busy here, and has Ulmer of the Kingswood holding the Wall (and we saw earlier that Ulmer 1) has actually been appointed to speak for (at least some of) "the men", and 2) seems on board with Jon's pro-wildling plans). If Bowen Marsh was going to make a move against Jon and have any logical hope of ultimate success, he had to move in this chapter, before the wildlings (at least fully) crossed.

[Tagganaro]

I wish I got to comment on this great chapter earlier, here's some additional thoughts:

Why I love the wildlings part 88- They have a leader named the Great Walrus. How cool is that. And apparently 2 warring factions, one of which wears antlers on their heads and another wearing walrus tusks. Much cooler than the stupid lords and their flags- These guys actually wear animal parts. They become the animal. And again, the Great Walrus- Is there a better nickname in Westeros? Ever in history? I can only imagine what this guy looks like and what he acts like.

Why Mance is awesome, part 1000000- Tormund's quote "You've killed a wight, Mance has killed a 100" paraphrasing. I can just see everyone else in the wildling camp scared out of their minds, paralyzed by fear, and Mance calmly sitting there singing some kind of brilliant song about how he's about to kick some dead person's ass, then proceeding to beat them up with his bare fists without even using a sword to the point that the wights just give up and go back to being dead. I actually fully believe that if Mance was alone out North of the Wall, there'd be no issue- The wights would leave him alone because they'd just give up getting their asses kicked. But Mance has other people to protect. And again, since the Others are mist, Mance's ass-kicking abilities are lost on them, too bad. However, Dragons better not be pissing Mance off in the future, that might not end well.

Jon as King of the Wildlings- I love the contrast here between Jon and Stannis. Stannis not only kicks these proud wildlings while they're down, but insults their religion, brutally burns their "king" for all to see, and just generally treats them in a very Stannis-like way. We know how that worked out- The wildlings for the most part dislike Stannis, and the ones North of the Wall would never be willing to go back there to treat with Stannis (based on how the wildling at the Weirwood grove reacted). Jon on the other hand, besides for the "blood price", treats them with mostly compassion, decency, and respect. We see the difference there- Granted, there's still many who hate him obviously because of the blood price, but more than a few unnecessarily swear some kind of oath to him. Impressive.

Also wanted to point out Jon's reaction to Gerrick Kingsblood, because I do think it's important to note to show how Jon has been "seduced" by the wildlings, and how he basically is one at this point. Gerrick has a very traditional Westerosi view of blood (obviously, look at his name lol). He think's it's very important, and it probably is to be honest. Yet Jon thinks to himself what a fool this guy is. It provides a good running commentary on how Jon views things versus how someone like Selyse or possibly even Stannis as well would view things.

Ghost- the utility belt: I love how Tormund tries to diss Jon by inviting everyone to come look at how normal he is and how they don't have to be afraid of him, yet Jon is aware this is still somewhat important/useful. And how perfect is him just whistling for Ghost to come bounding up to him, and almost knocking Tormund off his afraid horse. Great interplay as always between Jon and Tormund. Also love how the mead that Tormund gives Jon is described as ridiculously strong- I'd expect nothing less from Tormund. So how many ways has Jon used Ghost so far lol? No other Stark child has used their dire wolves in quite so many versatile ways. I'm still partial to Ghost the Chastity Belt from ACOK as the best usage.

Finally, what to make of the snowflake speaking to Jon "Dance with me anon. You will dance with me anon." (again, paraphrasing). Obviously, we can guess that there's sexual connotations to that based on Alys's similar comment to him, but I wonder if more generally it fits into the general feeling of the chapter (very melancholy and dark as Lummel pointed out). There's sort of a depressive, resigned to the future quality to Jon's thoughts in this chapter, especially regarding possible death and mutilation, which is actually in line with the past few Jon chapters. It' s clear that Jon is very aware he is "walking on thin ice" and seems perfectly resigned to being the Corn King here (as Bloodraven/Bran reminds him of in the beginning of the chapter).

[Tagganaro]

About the Gnarled Hand- I would think it has to be Bloodraven. I also found the immediate connection to Mormont's raven to be interesting...It goes directly from the gnarled hand waking him up to Mormont's raven pecking him. Seems to be a direct tie to Bloodraven/Bran there if it wasn't already obvious enough.

To add to Ragnorak's great analysis, I wonder about how the dream progresses as well. Jon goes from dreaming of killing wildlings to dreaming of killing NW members to dreaming of killing his own brother. It's a very weird progression when you think about it, not at all one that strikes me as remotely "positive". So I'd have to guess the hand waking him would be a helping one, as that's pretty freaking depressive.

[butterbumps!]

Why I love the wildlings part 88- They have a leader named the Great Walrus. How cool is that. And apparently 2 warring factions, one of which wears antlers on their heads and another wearing walrus tusks. Much cooler than the stupid lords and their flags- These guys actually wear animal parts. They become the animal. And again, the Great Walrus- Is there a better nickname in Westeros? Ever in history? I can only imagine what this guy looks like and what he acts like.

I would kind of like to think he's Manderley's long lost cousin.

[Winterfellian]

Another moment that struck me was Jon decision to be the last one through the ice. Is not just the wording I find interesting but I like Jon's decision to remain behind interms of him accepting the responsability here. It sets a good imagery of himself as a leader putting his people before him with himself taking the rear. He had just accomplished a life hanging event and remained there to see it through. How many other leaders in the series remain behind their armies, etc. to watch for him/her self to what did their actions and decisions amounted to? They usually the first one through in a figurative sense because with very few exceptions they out theselves first and their people second.

Like many posters noted before by the time Jon crossses the wall there is life everywhere in Castle Black, save in his dormitory. However part of this is due to Jon's decision to be the last one through. Therefore it was his decision to remain behind supervising that everything went well what created the isolation and darkness in his chambers, the same as becoming a leader has isolated him from others.

[Lummel]

and here we are:

Barristan III & IV (The Kingbreaker & The Queens Hand)

Overview

Barristan meets the Shavepate and they finalise arrangements for a coup d'etat against Hizdahr and their tactics against the Yunkai. Despite disagreement they settle and go their separate ways. Barristan spends some time with his trainees and considers knighting several of them, but decides against it. He tries to explain chivalry to them all.

It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword,” he said. “Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it.” The boys looked at him strangely

Barristan bathes. At the hour of the wolf (a popular time for significant deeds) Barristan gains access to Hizdahr's apartment and confronts him asking if he is the Harpy and Daenerys' would be poisoner. Just as Barristan takes Hizdahr under arrest word is brought that the dragons have been released.

The Queens Hand begins with Quentyn dying. The released dragons have destroyed the pyramid of Hazkar and made nests in in the pyramids of Yherizan and Uhlez. Two hundred Highborn have gathered in the square calling for vengeance while the sons of the Harpy have killed 29. The Dragon Thrones have been replaced by a round table about which in council gather the leaders of the forces loyal to Daenerys. Barristan tells them the plan (devised by Missandei) to split the sellswords from the Yunkai. They agree a plan of attack once a signal beacon is lit (is this the best signal with fire breathing dragons wandering about ?) Barristan meets privately with Yronwood and Drinkwater, they agree to take back acceptance of the Tattered Princes offer to change sides in return for seizing and giving him Pentos (hmm I wonder what Illyrio will think of that) with the aim that his troops will rescue the hostages before Barristan opens the attack. The Green Grace returns and advises Barristan to release Hizdahr to restore peace and to kill the dragons. Their tête a tête is interrupted by the news that the Yunkai have started firing bodies into Meereen. The time of Fire and Blood has returned.

Observations

• “Your way is dishonorable.” “Your way is stupid”
  
• Brazen beasts – double meaning, not just the metal masks but also bold, impudent and shameless. Eventually the Shavepate carries the mask of a wolf with a lolling tongue. The pack has turned on it's prey
  
• “Long has Kandaq waited for this night” - a reference to himself or to the political ambitions of his house?
  
• “Better a long life as a squire than a sort one as a soiled knight”
  
• “Selmy lingered in the bath until it had grown cold and scrubbed his skin till it was raw. Clean as he had ever been, he rose, dried himself, and clad himself in whites” - physical or moral cleanliness? Compare with Daenerys
  
• Blacks and Whites – Nights Watch and Kingsguard – absolute and limited moral outlooks? No shades of grey in their thinking?
  
• The tapestry showing the defeated Valyrians is reminiscent of the Caudine Forks
  
• Barristan still calls Hizdahr “your Grace”
  
• The Queen's bed used as Quentyn's death bed suggesting death and sex or a love that consumes, the man burnt up trying to come close to her “Not all men are meant to dance with dragons”
  
• The Shavepate suspects the Green Grace, but Barristan respects her: “This is a strong woman, and she has been a faithful friend to Daenerys.”
  
• “Ser Barristan let each man speak his mind.” - the Tywin approach?
  

Analysis

Barristan's motivations

Butterbumps! Raised the issue of Barristan's motivations and we get some more insights in these two chapters. His mind returns to the past. He refers back to Rhaegar's children to explain why they can't kill the hostages. This example can have no meaning for the Shavepate. The failed relationships and poor marriages of the Targaryens, Duskendale and Harrenhall play on his mind, the latter two and his consciousness of having done the wrong thing, or not having done, been able to do the right thing seem to me to drive his actions now. The past is never over in ASOIAF, everybody is caught up in it either because they live in the world that resulted from what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar or because they are captured by what they did wrong, haunted by what they witnessed and the ghosts of what might have been.

Loyalty, ideas of duty are all intertwined with love. He thinks he would have killed King Bob if he had had the wrong look on his face when Rhaegar's children were presented to him. “Daenerys, his bright shining child queen”.

However he is conscious of being out of his depth “I was not made for this”, wheeling and dealing are behaviours that he does not admire and associates, negatively, with Varys and Littlefinger. Feelings of inadequency are quite widespread in ADWD, apart from The Ned I'm not aware of having noticed it much before then.

Love

Not much to do with leadership but a theme of ASOIAF, here we see again love as a destructive force, “Her love for Daario is poison” and also the memory of all those failed royal relationships that had political consequences. How much better for her to have settled down with a mud man for political reasons!

Daenerys through Barristan's eyes

“Do you think the Yunkai'i would ever have dared present Daenerys with the head of her hostage?”

No, thought Selmy.

We saw in the first chapters that Barristan compared Hizdahr's pitiful reaction to Groleo's head to those the Targaryen Kings he had known would have had. Daenerys however makes a more forceful impression on Barristan. He doesn't believe that the Yunkai would have dared to defy this teen-aged girl in that way. Once burnt twice shy perhaps.

“If not for the rain, the fires might have consumed all of Meereen by now”

The fires and the rain suggest something both destructive and cleansing. It reminds me a little of “Taxi Driver” in which the rain is desired as something to wash clean the streets. But the destruction here is more extreme. The dragons locked up are now bringing Fire and Blood to the city destroying the lairs of the Great Masters, is this a reflection of Daenerys' subconscious wishes? Has the mad woman in the attic been released?

Having gone through this reread, reflecting on your contributions, I think that Daenerys is something of a Shiva figure representing destruction and creation, with the two interlinked and interdependent.

“A young girl she might be, but Daenerys Targaryen was the only thing that held them all together.”

It's worth bearing in mind the regime in Meereen was a revolutionary one. Everything was been built up from scratch, everything was being built up in response to Daenerys' governmental needs. There is nothing else that binds all these people together other than their desire to serve, work with or in some cases to take advantage of Daenerys.

Next time Dr. Pepper will be foreclosing on Jon and then Butterbumps! will be bringing Daenerys down to earth which means that this is my last chapter post in this re-read. This shared reread has really helped deepen my appreciation of these chapters and I hope that you have got something out of it too.

As it happens on our side we have enjoyed it so much that the rereading will continue. Dr. Pepper is planning to take part in a Stannis focused reread later in the year, while the rest of the team that brought you Learning to Lead will, with Ragnarok, be bringing you "Rereading Tyrion" in September, this will probably last half a year and will run from AGOT to the end of ADWD. I'll be posting a link once we start.

[Lummel]

I would kind of like to think he's Manderley's long lost cousin.

I imagine their meeting looking like this

ETA, back to boars. The wild boar is a very powerful beast, it's interesting that a boar features in the penultimate chapters of both Daenerys and Jon, apparently in Irish folk tales the appearance of a wild boar symbolises coming death and disaster. The serving up of a wild boar at the Yuletide feast suggests death and renewal - which fits with the direction that our heroes have been travelling in.

[Fire Eater]

[skahaz]"As you say. Good fortune to you, old man."

They went their separate ways.

Does this foreshadow a falling out between the two, or a description of the opposite approaches they take?

Also as Barristan and Skahaz were talking about the Harpy and the sons of the Harpy

"It will be collected . . . but the lose of a few coins will never stay the Harpy's hand." . . . "Queen's Hand," Skahaz grumbled with disgust. "An old woman's hand I am thinking, wrinkled and feeble."

Could this be pointing to the Green Grace being the Harpy? Here is another piece of evidence:

Dragons haunt the skies, feasting on the flesh of children.

How does she know about Hazzea? Hazzea's father was among the last of the petitioners, and Dany made sure that that information didn't leave the hall. Dany gave Hazzea's bones to the Graces, but she probably kept the girl's manner of death secret from them.

Fortunately, for Barristan he has to deal with military matters as Hand, something he is accustomed to and he does a decent job at the council meeting. The council table is reminiscent of the Round Table of King Arthur.

[Winterfellian]

Great post Lummel! Thank you for taking the time to make so many great analysis for us to enjoy and discuss! :cheers:

Exploring a little bit more Butterbump's question about Barristan motives for siding with Dany. His recurrent memory of him saving Aerys in Duskendale and the regret accompanying it suggest to me that he romantices the figure of Dany so that he can forgive or at least justify to himself hie saving of Aerys. It is as if his rationalization was: If I can protect and serve Aerys's daughter whe she restores the peace to the realm then my saving of Aerys will be worth it or something like that. And by the realm I mean Westeros,because Barritan seem to care little or less about Mereen. He only does because is Dany's city but his thoughts keep turning back to Westeros.

In a way his choosing of Dany is about restoring his own sense of honor and purpose since when he first met her he really was a discarded knight. This is part of the reasons I feel he romantices her figure and close his eyes to her faults. Like Robert was to him "a good knight" Dany is his "bright child queen" None of this shows a deep understanding of the monarch he's serving, for both the good and the bad.

There are no bedslaves in Mereen: Hizdahr's treatment of that "freedwoman trained in pleasure" is the same as Dany with Irri and I found them both highly contemptible. More so Dany, because as the starter of a social revolution based on equality she ought to be better. It is just another to the long list of roles that remain the same in Mereen.

Dragons: Hizdahr's monstruous dragon thrones have been replaced by 2 live dragons who are causing havoc among the city proving that no gilded throne can replace a real dragon. I like the comparison of Dany's inner dragon being finally unleashed. Specially if we compare it to her last chapter of the book. I wonder if this can be qualify as good or bad. Am not sure there will be a choice of the other. Barristan tells us that Dragons are naturally attracted to violence and as they are now they can't distinguish friend from foe. This can tie with Lummel's comparison of Dany to Shiva as being 2 ends of a stick- destruction and creation both.

It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword,” he said. “Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it.” The boys looked at him strangely

Am not sure what to make of this quote, specially the bold part. I think that this can currently relate more to Jon's predicament with his vows than with Dany's overall situation. It shows a very limited POV of things that I can't agree with. Compare Barristan's logic with Qhorin's: Our honor means no more than our lives as long as the realm is safe. I confess that of the 2 I quite prefer the second as it recognizes that where honor might be important it is worth nothing when weighted against the greater good. Barristan being quite similar to Ned I can picture Jon in a similar position as Barristan's squires listening to his father talk about honor. However when confronted with reality he chose Qhorin's logic over his father's.

Some of the kindest acts in the story have been when a character lets go of this closed version of the concept of honor. Like Ned relinquishing his to save Sansa (and possibly Jon should R+L=J), Davos commiting treason to save Edric Storm, Jon realizing that the realms of men includes all men and not those south of the wall or even Jaime keeping his word to Catelyn. I'll take their "tainted honor" anyday over Barristan's

[Lummel]

...Could this be pointing to the Green Grace being the Harpy? Here is another piece of evidence:

...How does she know about Hazzea? Hazzea's father was among the last of the petitioners, and Dany made sure that that information didn't leave the hall. Dany gave Hazzea's bones to the Graces, but she probably kept the girl's manner of death secret from them...

agreed, she shouldn't have known that, couldn't have known that except for someone at court telling her or spreading the word - enemies within!

There are no bedslaves in Mereen: Hizdahr's treatment of that "freedwoman trained in pleasure" is the same as Dany with Irri and I found them both highly contemptible. More so Dany, because as the starter of a social revolution based on equality she ought to be better. It is just another to the long list of roles that remain the same in Mereen.

Hizdahr's attitudes seem worse to me: "Her? She's nothing. A bedslave...I misspoke. Not a slave. A free woman. Trained in pleasure...". Nothing is very strong. I don't think that Daenerys has come close to treating her people as though they are nothing, although I agree her use of Irri for sexual relief is using her as though she were still a slave, or that it is an acceptable condition of service for a woman to be so used.

Am not sure what to make of this quote, specially the bold part. I think that this can currently relate more to Jon's predicament with his vows than with Dany's overall situation. It shows a very limited POV of things that I can't agree with. Compare Barristan's logic with Qhorin's: Our honor means no more than our lives as long as the realm is safe. I confess that of the 2 I quite prefer the second as it recognizes that where honor might be important it is worth nothing when weighted against the greater good. Barristan being quite similar to Ned I can picture Jon in a similar position as Barristan's squires listening to his father talk about honor. However when confronted with reality he chose Qhorin's logic over his father's.

Some of the kindest acts in the story have been when a character lets go of this closed version of the concept of honor. Like Ned relinquishing his to save Sansa (and possibly Jon should R+L=J), Davos commiting treason to save Edric Storm, Jon realizing that the realms of men includes all men and not those south of the wall or even Jaime keeping his word to Catelyn. I'll take their "tainted honor" anyday over Barristan's

No I wasn't sure either, which is why I left the boys looking at him strangely. Barristan's honour in particular isn't The Ned's honour which yielded to his love of Lyanna. Barristan was happy to serve King Bob until Joffrey kicked him out and happy to serve Aerys II despite knowing his short comings - nor does he really know what is the right, honourable course of action.

Interestingly in Barristan III he holds back from knighting a couple of his trainnees in case the coup fails and there knighthoods are tainted by his actions. However in Barristan IV it appears that since he succedded it is ok to knight them afterall - honour for Barristan is apparently defined by if you win or not!

Honour is a big theme in the books. I certainly find it a seductive notion, but I agree that I am happier with Davos and The Ned doing those right but dishonourable things.

[Winterfellian]

Hizdahr's attitudes seem worse to me: "Her? She's nothing. A bedslave...I misspoke. Not a slave. A free woman. Trained in pleasure...". Nothing is very strong. I don't think that Daenerys has come close to treating her people as though they are nothing, although I agree her use of Irri for sexual relief is using her as though she were still a slave, or that it is an acceptable condition of service for a woman to be so used.

I agree that the nothing part was very strong. Looking back, contemptible might not have been the right choice of words, but mostly hypocritical. I guess I take it harder on Dany because from knowing her better than I do Hizdahr (from whom I usually expect the lowest and worst) am disappointed she shows little to no empathy here. Dany knows what it is like to be used for sexual release without having a say on the matter (earliest stage of her first marriage). Based on her experiences of what it is like to be regarded as a tool or a means to an end is that she's trying to change the way people are treated in not only Mereen but most of Slaver's Bay so I feel it is her responsibility to make all this small distinctions among her own household and live by example. While Hizdahr's treatment of that woman is horrible he comes from a culture that views this as perfectly natural and has never made any professions about him being a paragon for social reformation so that might be why I find his behavior less hypocritical than I do Dany's, therefore I feel less contempt for him.

Interestingly in Barristan III he holds back from knighting a couple of his trainnees in case the coup fails and there knighthoods are tainted by his actions. However in Barristan IV it appears that since he succedded it is ok to knight them afterall - honour for Barristan is apparently defined by if you win or not!

I really like this observation a lot!

[Julian Rayne]

One difficulty in discussing honor is that it has (at least) two meanings. There's 'internal honor' (Ned's honor) which roughly translates to integrity, doing the right thing and serving the greater good, and then there's 'external honor' (Klingon honor) which is more about reputation and standing in the eyes of society.

Barristan's and Qhorin's quotes could mean very different things depending on which meaning of 'honor' they're using. Qhorin is clearly talking about external honor; it doesn't matter what people think of Jon as long as his actions protect the realm. But protecting the realm is what gives Jon his internal honor. You cannot make weigh, compare or favor internal honor vs. protecting the realm because they're one and the same to a Night's Watchman.

In Barristan's case it isn't clear to me which 'honor' he's speaking of. If he means 'internal honor' then he's saying much the same thing that Qhorin is.

If however as I suspect he's speaking of 'external honor' (because I'm not even sure this setting has the concept of internal honor), then I agree with Winterfellian.

[sunworshipper]

If however as I suspect he's speaking of 'external honor' (because I'm not even sure this setting has the concept of internal honor), then I agree with Winterfellian.

Barristan's problem is that to him, "internal" and "external" honor are indivisible. He can't comprehend that his public reputation and his internal integrity can conflict. When they seem to conflict, he just tries harder to make them the same. The more evil Aerys got, the more he concentrated on his oath and his white cloak. When he gets cast out by Joffrey, he has to make him an illegitimate king to restore his honor as a Kingsguard. He is rather self-centered in his martyr complex. If he loses, then he will be shamed of himself. For playing the game of thrones, not for playing it poorly.