Learning to Lead IV: sucess in failure? An ADWD Daenerys and Jon reread project

[Lummel]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Welcome to Learning to Leader IV, a reread thread looking at the Daenerys and Jon chapters in ADWD. We began here and then continued on to parts II and III.

The project is led by Butterbumps!, Dr.Pepper and myself with the aims of

• having a chapter by chapter reread to focus our attention on the whole arc
  
• a comparison of the Daenerys and Jon arcs which have distinct parallels
  
• a consideration of both as leaders and the development of their leadership styles and abilities with relevant comparison to other characters in the books
  
• courteous and respectful posting
  

and we were particularly keen to avoid the ruts that Daenerys and Jon threads can easily get caught in. Due to some excellent contributions including those on architecture, clothing and the trappings of power we hope we have been successful in bringing something newish to the forum.

Our intention has been to post two chapters every week alternating between Daenerys and Jon, due to a shortage of Daenerys chapters the Jon chapters will in future alternate with Quentyn and Barristan until we return to Daenerys for her last chapter.

The most recent chapter posted was Daenerys IX. If you do post please avoid discussion of future chapters, this is a reread, we'll get there one chapter at a time. :)

[Lummel]

Sipping a little coffee (naturally with salt in it, but no butter) I'll add a proper post so the thread doesn't look too naked.

HopeforSpring said: "I'm not sure she takes her success for granted really, or she keep repeating that to herself as a mantra so she can persevere in very rough circumstances. Kind of like a athlete telling themself "I'm a winner, I'm a winner, I'm a winner" before a race."

That's interesting, "I am the blood of the Dragon" so is less about self-assurance and more about psyching herself up, 'come on Dany you can do it, you're the blood of the dragon'...

Maia said: "Indeed, but that's the problem I have with Dany's storyline in ADwD - that I personally don't see much of a development towards said understanding in her character and that this lack uncomfortably (for me, as a Dany fan) parallels Cersei."

That on the whole works for me. In ASOIAF we see that winning power is easiest (see King Bob), maintaining power is hard (see Cersei), using power to achieve something constructive is incredibly hard and all the harder the bigger the institution is.

We see Jon making some changes, but he is in a smaller organisation, not trying to rule a kingdom, and the problems he faces are closed with obvious objectives (get more men, get more food) while Daenerys (and really other monarchs too) are facing more open problems were the first problem is to try and identify a solution. Given that and with a nod to Tagganaro here mentioning the big swinging, follow your heart and unleash fire blood victory at Astapor. It's no surprise is it that she settles into a downward spiral of doubt and uncertainty as she realises that the consequences of that big success - it turns sour.

That's where I think her heart is in the right place. She doesn't want to be the person who is making the world worse, she does feel responsibility for her actions. Depression seems a fairly reasonable reaction really in the circumstances.

But then I agree with Lyanna in liking "that Dany's powers are limited. She doesn't have super intellect, she doesn't have superpowers of understanding how things work. The fact that Dany is limited makes her more interesting. It makes her more realistic." I find it great reading: how it all goes wrong, very reasonably as step by step she looses control of the situation in a perfectly reasonable way as self-doubt combines with the determination of others to undermine her.

ETA 1: In that way the ending of Daenerys IX is a fantastic catharsis because it is an escape from that downward spiral. Which kind of leads back I think to the incestuous sexual thrill of flying way, she's rediscovering pleasure and enjoyment as she escapes from the hole she has found herself in.

ETA 2: Hmm I can tell the coffee is reaching my brain as I'm spamming my own thread here, but another thought. Thematically the tone of ASOIAF follows the seasons from late summer optimism, to autumnal decay and rot, finally to winter's cold and depression and this is mirrored in the characters. Daenerys, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion have all reached faced events, or realised things about themselves in a personal autumn of mellow fruitfulness and have declined into this winter state with hopes and joys in hibernation. At some point then, presumably, the corn king will rise again and there will be tentative green shoots of something more optimistic and positive?

[PatrickStormborn]

About the fisrt part of your post I think it is easier to accept the direwolves because like you said yourself the scale of destruction a dragon can bring upon a civilization is beyond anything a direwolf can achieve. Could Ghost, Lady, Summer, etc created the havoc in Astapor that allowed Dany to take control of the unsullied? Or the damage in Mereen 2 of her dragons caused when they escaped? Not likely. You can't compare the mess in the kingsroad (an event on which Joff played a big part) with the terror and destruction Dany's dragons can and have unleashed.

I think it's important to remember that the sack of Astapor occurred because of the Unsullied; the dragons caused a lot of damage, but they wouldn't have been able to do so without the Unsullied joining Daenerys.

I'm currently re-reading AGoT, and a couple of days ago I read the Bran chapter where he encounters Osha and the wildlings. Summer rips open one of the wildling's stomach and eats her insides, and Bran notes that he can't tell whether or not she is still alive (which reminds me of Dany burning the slaver's face in Astapor - something which is often met with criticism and is used to paint her as a villain). Yes, dragons are destructive, but so are the direwolves. And to be perfectly honest, I fear Nymeria's wolf pack slightly more than I fear Daenerys and Drogon.

[Julian Rayne]

The difference is that the Wildlings were explicitly threatening Robb and Brann. The direwolves don't go around randomly eating farmers' daughters.

[Winter's Knight]

The difference is that the Wildlings were explicitly threatening Robb and Brann. The direwolves don't go around randomly eating farmers' daughters.

Nymeria and her wolfpack are doing just that.

[Julian Rayne]

Nymeria and her wolfpack have been separated from Arya for a long time now. Daenerys chose not to train her dragons. And comparing direwolves to dragons is like comparing a handgun to a nuke.

[Lummel]

Doesn't that takes us back to mentoring? The Ned in Bran I AGOT tells his children to train the Direwolves and neither to abuse them nor to take up the time of his kennelmen. Who is there to tell Daenerys how to look after Dragons? What guidance does she have there other than the book of stories that Jorah gives her and whatever Viserys passed on to her?

Plus of course not being a child in the midst of a well run household she has to learn how to train dragons at the same time as activity leading her mini-horde and then an army and then governing a city state.

Although I fully agree had she carved out of her day time to work with her dragons the story would have been different as they become a weak point for her at the beginning of ADWD. The time that the Starks are able to spend with her direwolves as children shows in their more effective bonding. They are generally much happier accepting them as part of themselves (although I think Bran has some twinges seeing Summer's savagery, but then he's a sweet child).

[Loras]

I really enjoy Daenerys IX and I would agree with the sentiment that it was one of the best chapters in 'A Dance With Dragons' or the series generally.

The analysis of this chapter so far has been excellent, I've really enjoyed reading all your posts.

Others have highlighted that Daenerys exposes herself for the first time in this chapter and that even the architecture of the fighting pit leads her to be amongst the common people of Meereen. It is interesting that the Great Masters of Meereen all reside in pyramids but when they watch the slaves fighting, they sit at the bottom of the dome. We have seen that Dany spent more and more of her time fantasising or projecting herself on Daario. When we see the mercilessly blue sky it emphasises how exposed Dany is and how exposed the fighters are on the sand. Merciless has very negative connotations but this is ultimately where her salvation comes from.

I dont know about anyone else, but I always get from the final scenes of the chapter that Dany has finally given up. She has escaped and a massive weight has lifted from her shoulders.

[Dr. Pepper]

Jon X

Overview

Jon brings Alys Karstark to wed Sigorn of Thenn. Melisandre is performing the services. Selyse and her retinue are around along with a few of the Night's Watch, though Jon takes careful note of those who are missing. Sometime before the wedding, Alys' uncle, Cregan, had come searching for her with a few men-at-arms and some hounds. Jon met them at Mole's Town and arrested them before they could claim guest right.

Jon sends Selyse off to the feast in the hall and then converses with Mel. Mel tells of only seeing snow in her flames and then later reveals that she sees his face. She warns of keeping Ghost near. Jon goes to speak to Cregan in the ice cells to offer him the chance to repent and assist his neice and/or take the black.

Jon goes to the feast and hopes for a celebration for Alys' marriage. Old Flint and Norrey are in attendance, having each brought a wet nurse for Monster. Neither Flint nor Norrey make any show of opposition against the wedding between Alys and the wildlings under the red god. Alys and Jon talk of Karstark provisions and Jon requests that Alys send the old men and young boys to the wall should provisions run dangerously low instead of allowing them to head out to die alone in the snow.

A letter arrives from Cotter Pyke informing that they have sailed towards Hardhome and Hewett was left in charge. Jon and Ser Axell discuss Val and then the horn sounds twice, signalling Val's return and Torumund's arrival.

Observations

• The bride’s cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys’s shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. (Where did this crimson silk come from? Is it a magical conduit?)
  
• A wonder you haven’t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen’s ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. (In reference to Mel's comment that Patchface is dangerous. One does wonder why Mel hasn't found cause to give Patchface to the flames.)
  
• “All praise R’hllor, the Lord of Light,” the wedding guests answered in ragged chorus before a gust of ice-cold wind blew their words away.
  
• She hates the cold but loves the flames. He had only to look at her to see that. A word from Melisandre, and she would walk into the fire willingly, embrace it like a lover. (Regarding Selyse)
  
• Ser Glendon Hewett, the man who kicked Jon in the ribs, was left in command at Easterwatch by Cotter Pyke.
  

Analysis

Making Friends of Enemies: Playing the Political Game

Jon is branching out in his leadership. He waltzes an intricate dance in his attempts to appease all factions at the wall - the watchmen, the wildlings, Mel and her flock, and the Northerners. He extends an olive branch to Sigorn and the Thenns via the marriage arrangement turning an enemy who could have been a bad problem into an ally. The marriage offers the homeless Thenns a new home with a chance of protection from starvation and death by winter. He's made the Northerners in attendance (the Flints and the Norreys) aware that he operates with the North's best interests in mind. He appeases the Southerners at the wall by having the wedding service performed by Melisandre.

Still, he doesn't necessarily succeed on all fronts.

"Jon took careful note of who was there and who was not. Some men had the duty; many just off watch were fast asleep. But others had chosen to absent themselves to show their disapproval. Othell Yarwyck and Bowen Marsh were amongst the missing. Septon Chayle had emerged briefly from the sept, fingering the seven-sided crystal on the thong about his neck, only to retreat inside again once the prayers began."

Jon's weakness in his leadership has been in his inability to win opposition in the Night's Watch to his side. The dissenters are in the minority, but they are very loud in their disapproval. In Jon VIII, Jon recalls how Mormont was brought down by his own men. While Jon is aware of this fact, I think his clear weakness is in fully realizing that a loud, dissenting minority can bring him down as well and he's relying too much on the tradition of brothers following the Lord Commander regardless of opinion.

Bastards, Cripples and Broken Things: Father of the Meek?

Throughout the series, we've seen Jon stand up for those who are different. We saw him falter when he first reached the wall, but after Tyrion's lecture, he went back to taking a position of protector for those who are deemed different or outcasts.

There are quite a few instances of paternal behavior in this chapter. He first takes on the role of the father when giving Alys Karstark away to be wed and later when he recalls the actions he took to ensure Cregan was unable to disturb the protection he helped arrange for Alys. He reveals his indignation for the way Cregan came to the wall, with "four mounted men-at-arms, a huntsman, and a pack of dogs, sniffing after Lady Alys as if she were a deer." He then expressed hope for the evening to be one of suitable celebration.

During the feast, Jon made certain to send food out to Leathers and Wun Wun, keeping in mind Wun Wun's preference for vegetables. Wun Wun is obviously not meek or weak, but at the wall he's certainly an outcast, alternately feared and mocked.

The one Jon's paternal instinct is most clearly evident with is Satin. He does not care for the way Ser Malegorn sneers at Satin. Later, in the hall, he takes notice of Satin and the way the Queen's Men were looking at him.

"Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. Jon judged that wise. He did not like the way some of the queen’s knights were looking at the steward, particularly Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain. That one wants to shed a bit of blood, he thought. He is looking for some provocation."

Obviously no one is reaching their hands out to Jon with shouts of "Father! Father!", yet there is still an important comparison to be made in the maternal and paternal roles that Dany and Jon play with their subjects. Dany's freedmen do not provide any immediate benefit to her power. Apart from the Unsullied, they are not fighters and their abilities to assist in management is unknown. Jon's 'children' also do not provide immediate benefit to his power. Prior to the marriage, Alys had no fighting men and little loyalty/support behind her, but "Karhold remembers."

Satin does not possess great martial abilities nor does he garner respect among many of the men at the wall. Wun Wun does have strength but his presence at the wall is met with suspicion and distaste. Important to keep their parental roles in mind and how their 'children' can assist them as we finish up the reread.

Passion For Leading

In Dany's last few chapters, we've seen her become quite apathetic to ruling and leading. She hates it and she's almost relieved to pass on the bulk of leadership to Hizdahr. Despite Jon's solemn behavior, in this chapter, one senses a certain type of enjoyment or contentment in being a leader. This is something he likes doing. He's becoming more confident in his decisions and we see him doubting himself less.

It is necessary to consider Dany's initial handicap. Where Jon was provided instruction in leadership, Dany was not. He has a reference for what leadership entails where Dany went in with only vague ideas based on stories. Jon also had strong and knowledgeable mentors where Dany is left with poor mentors like Viserys, Barristan and Jorah.

Does Jon's enjoyment in his job assist him, blind him or a litle bit of both? Would Dany enjoy her job more if she had at least one mentor able to educate her in the basics of rule?

_____

[Loras]

Thanks for the recap Dr Pepper.

I believe that you are missing one of the most important exchanges in this chapter. The exchange between Ser Axell Florent and Jon Snow. I've picked up on Jon's anger during a number of the chapters and I believe that this is one of Jon's worst offences. While I think I would have reacted in a similar way, yet he antagonises Axell:

"Ser Axell, if you are truly the Queen's Hand, I pity her grace."

This is extremely undiplomatic and like I said, antagonising. I just think that this needs to be included in the recap.

[Julian Rayne]

Is GRRM drawing attention to fact that Jon and Cercei share a metric metric for measuring loyalty? Nothing further came of either incidence.

Regarding Mel's restraint wrt Patchface: Does this mean she's somewhat reluctant to kill without being completely sure it's necessary?

[Loras]

Regarding Mel's restraint wrt Patchface: Does this mean she's somewhat reluctant to kill without being completely sure it's necessary?

I think the opposite is more likely. She has seen Patchface in her visions and therefore he must be important. This seems to be the same reason that she has clung on to Jon Snow and Stannis Baratheon. It might just be a case of keeping him close, until her Red God reveals something more to her.

[Dr. Pepper]

Thanks for the recap Dr Pepper.

I believe that you are missing one of the most important exchanges in this chapter. The exchange between Ser Axell Florent and Jon Snow. I've picked up on Jon's anger during a number of the chapters and I believe that this is one of Jon's worst offences. While I think I would have reacted in a similar way, yet he antagonises Axell:

This is extremely undiplomatic and like I said, antagonising. I just think that this needs to be included in the recap.

I think it definitely should be included in the discussion. Unfortunately, I am quite weak when it comes to organizing an analysis to include all relevant information in a concise manner. Most of my posts initially start out as 10+ pages and are often way too wordy and scattered and I find myself cutting out too much.

My original notes on this exchange was basically questioning whether Jon is just getting cocky and a bit too comfortable in his power or if he's just hit his limit with the ignorance and ridiculousness Queen's contingent. How damaging is this exchange?

[Lykos]

Loras, Jon had a very good reason to think the worst of Ser Axell, since Maester Aemon informed Jon about him. FanTasy raised the question why Maester Aemon considered Ser Axell os such importance or did he inform Jon of everything he knew about Stannis´and the queen´s men offscreen?

A small question which has probably been raised before (but I could not find the answer). In ADWD Jon wonders: "He (Axell Florent) was an uncle to Queen Selyse and have been among the first to follow her in accepting Melisandre's red god. If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent's brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand idly by and watch his own brother being burned alive?"

Huh ... Maester Aemon? Is this a mistake by GRRM/his editor? Lord Alester was burned at Dragonstone and before Stannis arrived at the Wall, ETA leaving Axell to stay at Eastwatch.

[Tagganaro]

I think it definitely should be included in the discussion. Unfortunately, I am quite weak when it comes to organizing an analysis to include all relevant information in a concise manner. Most of my posts initially start out as 10+ pages and are often way too wordy and scattered and I find myself cutting out too much.

My original notes on this exchange was basically questioning whether Jon is just getting cocky and a bit too comfortable in his power or if he's just hit his limit with the ignorance and ridiculousness Queen's contingent. How damaging is this exchange?

Thanks for the recap Dr Pepper.

I believe that you are missing one of the most important exchanges in this chapter. The exchange between Ser Axell Florent and Jon Snow. I've picked up on Jon's anger during a number of the chapters and I believe that this is one of Jon's worst offences. While I think I would have reacted in a similar way, yet he antagonises Axell:

This is extremely undiplomatic and like I said, antagonising. I just think that this needs to be included in the recap.

Yes, this is a definitely a good point. I see it as a mix of both- Some cockiness on Jon's part but probably more just tired of being pestered about marriage to Val (it seems from Jon's thoughts that this had been going on a while).

Speaking of this, I absolutely adore Jon's hatred for the Southron fools here. We talked about it earlier, but it seems to be at a high point here. Some hilarious one-liners and thoughts. Here's a list:

Alys Karstark leaned close to Jon. "Snow during a wedding means a cold marriage, My lady mother always said so."

He glanced at Queen Selyse. There must have been a blizzard the day she and Stannis wed.

After looking over Ser Patreck and the others:

Jon Snow had begun to understand why Stannis had left them with his queen.

Selyse:

"I know that I could give his Grace more children if we were bound in fire."

To give him more children you would first need to get him into your bed. Even at the Wall, it was common knowledge that Stannis Baratheon had shunned his wife for years. One could only imagine how his Grace had responded to the notion of a second wedding in the midst of his war.

lol. Too bad we can only imagine. That would be quite a sight/scene to witness.

Also of interest, Jon describing all the Knights and Queens men as "Royal Ducklings."

It is of a lot of interest how Jon is interacting with the queen's men. Should he be nicer? More conciliatory/understanding/approachable? It's an interesting dilemma I'm sure for him. As he seems to be aware of, Stannis essentially left his worst and most useless people behind, who are now badgering Jon in a way that surely is unbecoming of them being his guests. They are acting like they own the place- None so more than Axell Florent, a guy Jon is predisposed to despise with a passion because of the whole burning his brother incident (for example, I have to think Jon is aware of the parallels to himself, considering he wanted to go to Robb in the first place and help him but instead stayed at the Wall. Jon probably feels a minor degree of guilt or discomfort related to that.)

And again, I can't image how often Jon has had to have told Axell what he's telling him here- Mainly that Val is not a princess nor will she willingly marry him. And he refuses to listen, instead badgering Jon again and again about marrying her. I imagine Jon also sees a parallel here to his situation in regards to Bowen Marsh and co.- Jon continues to try and tell them, even "teach" them, but they refuse to listen.

I really like the reading/narrative that we talked about on the other oath breaking thread of Jon being beaten down here and basically "defeated" or dragged down by the NW and its demands. On the flip side, you can view the wildlings as a seductive idea to him, slowly infecting him with ideas of freedom and ability to make your own choices without any pesky rigid vows to get in the way and constrain you. Here, I think we're seeing essentially 2nd to last straw that broke the camel's back. Jon's getting sick of all this- There's no way for him to please the queen's men in a conducive manner to anything (I mean sure, he can marry Val off to Axell when she's back, but it accomplishes nothing, and you still have guys like Ser Patreck out "looking for blood" because they're pissed about losing their lands or whatnot.) There's no way for him to please Cregan Karstark (who I'd argue he shouldn't be the least bit concerned with anyway, he should just chop his head off and give it to Alys as a wedding gift :cool4: ).

Anyway, thanks for the great review DP.

[Loras]

Loras, Jon had a very good reason to think the worst of Ser Axell, since Maester Aemon informed Jon about him. FanTasy raised the question why Maester Aemon considered Ser Axell os such importance or did he inform Jon of everything he knew about Stannis´and the queen´s men offscreen?

Lykos, while I don't think that it is wrong for Jon to have contempt for Ser Axell, I do think that he was being antagonistic for very little reason. Sometimes, when it suits him, Jon seems to forget that he is a political figure and that all of his actions and words have consequence.

That quote seemed to suggest that Aemon had only informed Jon that Alester Florent was burnt by Melisandre. It does not explicitly state that Aemon told Jon that Ser Axell had done nothing to stop it. The point that Stannis would allow his own Hand to be burnt at the stake is very important, Ser Axell's own actions, not so much.

The point that I was making is that Jon treats him badly, he mocks him and his station to his face. What Jon doesn't understand is that he is already standing on rotten ice with his officers, treating the Queen's Hand so uncurtly could lead to Axell and Selyse endorsing someone like Bowen Marsh.

This isn't the first time that we have seen this kind of behaviour from Jon; his words to Rattleshirt before they fought, his handling of his officers when they came round for tea and now how he handles Axell. Aemon told Jon to 'kill the boy', for me killing the boy is about Jon learning to handle himself and his anger in political situations.

Speaking of this, I absolutely adore Jon's hatred for the Southron fools here. We talked about it earlier, but it seems to be at a high point here. Some hilarious one-liners and thoughts.

This is another interesting parallel between Jon and Dany; both of them have contempt for cultures that they don't fully understand: Jon with the Southron courts and Dany with the slavers.

[Arya Targaryen]

I actually loved when Jon finally lost his temper and started insulting Ser Axell. I mean, the guy is a total idiot, an Jon is supposed to be the head of an independent institution. Ser Axell is his guest here, and he is definitely not in charge of the place.

And I remembered the election in ASOS: Jon thinks that either Cotter Pyke or Mallister would be a good choice. I can't recall any other names of whom he thinks he would do fine. And Jon was elected as a compromise - castle-trained, but still a bastard, just like a mixture of Cotter and Mallister. And when I think of what Jon had done so far regarding his treatment of Stannis and the resulting situation, I can't help but feel that neither Cotter nor Mallister could have done what Jon did.

Cotter didn't get on well with Selyse, and I think he wouldn't have done better with Stannis - the moment he started demanding castles and supplies, Cotter would have sent him to hell. Mallister on the other hand, I just don't think he would have objected to Stannis in any way Jon did: He probably would have provided him castles, let him burn Mance (Mance deserted from Shadowtower!), would have never let in the wildlings, let Stannis go and attack Bolton (and get betrayed and die in the process), and afterward he would have been stuck at Castle Black with a bunch of idiotic Queen's men, and couldn't even pretend that he is neutral in any sense.

[Warlock Vetolgar]

Lykos, while I don't think that it is wrong for Jon to have contempt for Ser Axell, I do think that he was being antagonistic for very little reason. Sometimes, when it suits him, Jon seems to forget that he is a political figure and that all of his actions and words have consequence.

In moments like these it is so painfully obvious that Jon is his son's father (and I would say his Uncle Brandon's nephew, too). The bane of Ned Stark was that his conception of right and wrong was far stronger than any inclination to bend like a reed in the wind, to quote Paul Atreides. I always felt there is some degree of immaturity in that reluctance to confront things for how they are and hope that the circumstances adapt to our own standpoints. Jon simply blinds himself to the dangers that surround him. Ultimately, I ask myself, can you be a good leader, no matter how many good decisions you make, if you can't foresee the danger that might come from your actions?

[Lummel]

Lets compare the Daenerys and Jon weddings.

They are both political weddings aimed to tie groups together, one of which are outsiders alien to the local way of life. In one however the woman is going to take the lead and the man will defer to her, in the other Daenerys surrenders authority to Hizdahr. Both weddings signal the victory of the local elite.

One marriage gives every sign of working to Jon's advantage, the other gives Daenerys what she things she wants (peace) but not what she really wants (justice for the ex-slaves). Jon's perspective on the wedding is bright and optimistic - but some of his men are not so happy, Daenerys' perspective is pessimistic although presumably some of her people will benefit.

I agree with Dr.Pepper - surely this is Jon at his best. He takes this small event and turns it to his advantage. He takes the Thenns, a potentially dangerous group that could want vengeance and neutralises them by making them kin. He takes an ally of Bolton and turns them into an ally of Stannis (or more deviously himself, repairing the damage in Stark-Karstark relations), this is probably all oath breaking, I certainly feel it works more to the advantage of Jon personally and the Stark family family than it does to the Watch, but it works. It also suggests that being a Great Lord in the North is a more natural and comfortable role for Jon than being Lord Commander of the Watch.

[Budj]

Jon knew he could insult Axel - he is useless to the watch and to Stannis. Selyse falls inline with Stannis so I doubt a mutiny would be even considered and if Axel did it himself he would share his brothers fate.