Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[Winter's Knight]

i kind of agree with some things you said, but i think you're very influenced by showTyrion... Whoring and drinking? Until the end of ASOS he's been with just one woman, whom he actually fell in love with.

And he never gets drunk until Joffrey's wedding.

Jaime teases him about celibacy before he set out for the Wall and Tyrion himself responds with horror at the thought of beggaring the whores of Westoros. Allowing for humourous exaggeration, he still seems to patronise prostitutes fairly often.

[Neo]

Tyrion can't be criticised too much for his stint as Hand. He took over the job at the most tumultuous time; a time that made Ned Stark's period as Hand look like a walk in the park.

He did what he had to do - hold King's Landing. It was Tyrion's ingenuity that prevented the capital from falling to Stannis. People will argue that Tywin was the difference maker, but Tyrion was the main reason that House Lannister is still standing at the top of the Westerosi tree.

People also seem to forget how young he is, as well. He is still learning, yet he dealt with the scheming of master game players like Varys, Pycelle and Littlefinger with ease. He will now be the main protagonist behind Daenerys' plans, so she may actually start doing things with some competence.

[1234567]

He will now be the main protagonist behind Daenerys' plans, so she may actually start doing things with some competence.

Or he may just steal her dragons and take her armies over to Westeros to join Aegon.

[Winter's Knight]

Or he may just steal her dragons and take her armies over to Westeros to join Aegon.

Who's side are you on? :stillsick:

[Currawong]

Jaime teases him about celibacy before he set out for the Wall and Tyrion himself responds with horror at the thought of beggaring the whores of Westoros. Allowing for humourous exaggeration, he still seems to patronise prostitutes fairly often.

There's also another reference in one of the Jaime POV chapters where Jaime muses that he left matters of whores to Tyrion. If I can find it easily, I'll post the quote, but I am certainly not being over-influenced by TV Show Tyrion, as there are several indications about his whoring.

And yes, Natalie_S, I too have always loved the Jaime / Tyrion brief reunion, where there is obviously so much genuine affection and they joke about the noseless and handless Lannister boys. I've posted elsewhere that it's notable that only Tyrion ever sympathised with Jaime about the loss of his hand: Cersei was disgusted by the stump, and Tywin merely wanted to know if Jaime could still fight. In ADWD, Tyrion is both angry at Jaime and yet he also misses him - there's that bit where he thinks that Jaime is the only thing he really misses about Kings Landing. I do hope the brothers eventually meet again and can mend their rift, though Jaime may find it hard to forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin, even though he'd had his own bitter rift with his father and they weren't on speaking terms when Tywin was killed.

[Natalie_S]

There's also another reference in one of the Jaime POV chapters where Jaime muses that he left matters of whores to Tyrion. If I can find it easily, I'll post the quote, but I am certainly not being over-influenced by TV Show Tyrion, as there are several indications about his whoring.

he's sexually active since his teens, so that's more than ten years. Even if he sleeps with about a girl an year (as the examples so far seem to indicate), if they're all paid that's a pretty extensive experience about whores but not anywhere near an addiction.

It's especially relevant because (as far as he knew) it was the only experience he had.

[1234567]

Who's side are you on? :stillsick:

The Others.

NB: I was thinking of the Cyvasse foreshadowing and the fact that everyone seems certain Dany, Jon and Tyrion will all end up on the same side.

[Winter's Knight]

The Others.

NB: I was thinking of the Cyvasse foreshadowing and the fact that everyone seems certain Dany, Jon and Tyrion will all end up on the same side.

The things one forgives in friends...

[1234567]

The things one forgives in friends...

Aw, Shucks. In all seriousness though, given Tyrion's behaviour in power, is it too far out to see him taming and then taking (which is effectively stealing) the dragons to Westeros. Especially given that he has had a fasination and desire to ride dragons his entire life?

[Winter's Knight]

Aw, Shucks. In all seriousness though, given Tyrion's behaviour in power, is it too far out to see him taming and then taking (which is effectively stealing) the dragons to Westeros. Especially given that he has had a fasination and desire to ride dragons his entire life?

Might not be so bad, especially when you consider what happened to the last dragon thief. (Poor Quentyn :crying: )

[Larry of the Lawn]

There's also another reference in one of the Jaime POV chapters where Jaime muses that he left matters of whores to Tyrion. If I can find it easily, I'll post the quote, but I am certainly not being over-influenced by TV Show Tyrion, as there are several indications about his whoring.

It's in ADWD, in the chapter where he negotiates the peace at Raventree. When he's talking to Bracken and the camp follower in the tent, and she asks him why he's staring at her "turnips" he says that his brother Tyrion has lain with many whores, but he's only lain with one.

[Sijjvra]

Tyrion used to be one of my favorites when I first picked up the series years ago - it's easy to LIKE him because he is charismatic and can be pretty funny, and yes he went through some hard times in his life.

However, upon re-reads and a bit of maturity on my part, I've come to the conclusion that he's much more like Cersei than Jaime is. Tyrion is vindictive, selfish, and shallow. He can be vain, despite how he feels about his looks (he has an inferiority complex mixed with a twisted sense of self importance ), he uses people to his own ends and doesn't think much of sacrificing small folk for his gain. (Arming the mountain clans of the Vale, for instance - later we hear they are raiding peasant villages in that area. The idea of sacrificing Flea Bottom during Stannis' attack, and I'm sure there are more if I bothered to go through the books and count all the details). Does this sound more like Cersei or Jaime or Tywin? The answer is Cersei.

Tywin would, if he had to, sacrifice the small folk but he -rarely- seemed to act on desire of personal vengeance or vanity. Instead, he was more about furthering the Lannister clan as a whole. Definitely Tywin was no saint, but he was a far more competent ruler and Hand than Tyrion. If it had been Tyrion that rode into the town to save it from Stannis, I doubt Tywin would have pouted over the fact he wasn't getting all the adoration and cheers from the citizens. He was more a "big picture" guy and not so much about -personal- glory, wherein Tyrion and Cersei are all about personal glory.

His outlook on women is pretty disgusting. Yes, we know he was hurt over Tysha, but in ADWDs, especially, he seems to equate most women with whores at this point because of Shae's actions. What happened to Shae was pretty much Tyrion's own fault - he KNEW she was a whore, being bought and paid for, and yet he fell in love anyway. I'm fairly sure that had Shae spoken up against the Lannisters at Tyrion's trial, she'd have been thrown in a black cell and tortured to death, or worse. I don't like Shae, but Tyrion built her up in his head and when she didn't live up to his fantasy ideal of her, he murdered her.

No, he doesn't rape Sansa and that's one rare good point about him, but we can see in how he treats Penny (mild annoyance and weary, reluctant liking) in the fact that he thinks she's very unnattractive and ugly, yet whines and cries when the tall, pretty girls don't find HIM attractive, that he's a big hypocrit. If he's so shallow as to only chase after long-legged beauties that aren't interested in him while ignoring anyone beneath his physical standards of beauty - how sympathetic a character is he, really? He spends most of ADWD moping and whining and plotting revenge against his family. Cersei is the only one left that has really wronged him, and really I think she had some instinctive fear of Tyrion because deep down they realize how alike they are with one another.

His newfound hate for Jaime really bugs me. During the Tysha incident, Jaime was very young himself. I've no doubt Tywin threatened him with dire consequences to shut up about the truth OR tricked him into thinking Tysha really was a whore (Tyrion believed it, why wouldn't Jaime?) until he began to put two and two together when he was older. He was the one person in the family that openly cared for Tyrion and was kind to him, and it was out of regret and guilt that he told Tyrion the truth - the only one in the family that would do so - and is repaid by his whiny, selfish little brother wanting to kill him and lying about Joffrey's murder. Way to go Tyrion. Someone is honest with you for a change, and you turn around and try to wound them with lies just because your feelings are hurt.

Yeah, I don't like him. I think he'd be a crappy ruler, I think he's selfish, and I hope he gets what's coming to him just like Cersei does. Cersei could be just as sympathetic a character if you look at it from a certain angle (married to an abusive drunk that forced her in bed, lost a child, paranoid about her relationship with her brother) just as Tyrion is painted a sympathetic character because of the angle the POVs are presented....but when you step back and look at it as a whole, he's not someone I would ever admire or like.

I'd argue that of the Lannister siblings, Jaime is the least selfish and has shown the most capacity for true goodness - even with all his many shortcomings, brashness and arrogance. But that's an argument for another thread.