Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[Jolene Brown]

Therefore every one who has ever bedded a whore in Essos is a rapist, is that correct? Or are you saying that only the ones who were not good looking were the rapists? And at what point did Tyrion date rape anyone?

I do think this is an interesting question - is it inherently rape when someone has sex at a brothel in Essos, or is it the way Tyrion goes about it that makes what happens so problematic? I am genuinely not sure. What i remember was being very disturbed primarily by the second time he had sex with the slave in the brothel.

[l3ol3o]

None of the women in essos gave consent, and if they say no they are punished or die. That is what being a sex slave means. It is clear in the text that none of the women in essos wanted to have sex with him. Yes, he forced them. I dont have my books with me but iirc one of them was dying? If you dont get consent it is rape, ever heard of date rape? It is very common.

Oh, no. There is so much wrong with this, sorry but people are people. This is a poor way to justify tyrions actions.

The thing about slavery though is that slaves don't have rights. They don't give their consent for anything. They are property. Their master is the one who gives consent, not the slaves.

[E-Ro]

And yes, I am a 21st century man, so I am judging him by 21st century standards, why would I judge any charecter differently?

[l3ol3o]

And yes, I am a 21st century man, so I am judging him by 21st century standards, why would I judge any charecter differently?

Because Tyrion doesn't live in the 21st century?

He lives in the world of ASOIAF and Essos is place where slavery is perfectly legal and normal.

[Elder Sister]

"Got to Sansa?" He was half way across the world, there was no danger of that.

OK, if Tyrion encountered Sansa in ADWD in the state he was in for most of that book, he probably would've exercised his "marital rights," which wouldn't be rape according in his universe, but is rape by our standards. It's important to note that this is a change from what he would've done and did do in ASOS, in which he did not abuse the girl he could've legally abused. This just goes to show how far Tyrion fell after he killed his lover and his father.

This is where Penny comes in. Penny is a lot like Sansa, only older, a dwarf, and not pretty. She doesn't inflame Tyrion's insecurities...or his desires. He thinks he can do better than her. Tyrion's quite shallow in this regard, he believes he deserves a beautiful wife/lover. Why? Because he lives in a society that would never waste a girl like Sansa on a "gargoyle" like Tyrion without pressing political reasons. This is unfair, Tyrion wants everything people don't feel he deserves. He doesn't want someone like him, a dwarf, no matter how willing she is, he wants what people don't think he should have. Penny finally breaks down this prejudice, this flaw of his. She forces him to stop being shallow and care about her as a person, which he eventually goes onto do. Martin would never have exposed Tyrion to Sansa in the state he was in in ADWD because he needs Tyrion to remain sympathetic. Now that Tyrion's begun to recover his humanity, his future encounters with women are less likely to be so aggravating.

As far as the question of consent with bedslaves, well, by the standards of the society that condones slavery, sex with a slave is not rape. But slavery is immoral, it robs people of having a say, so to someone who comes from a society that's anti-slavery, sex with a slave is wrong and yes, rape. Tyrion probably wouldn't have been so disgusting if he hadn't just been totally destroyed internally.

I so agree with this...Tyrion has become a horrible human being compared to when we first meet him in aGoT. I am curious to see if he will redeem himself.

I think it's worth saying that it wasn't just women who were sex slaves in the world of aSoIaF. Satin is a great example of a male who was forced into slavery. Thankfully, he winds up at the Wall, but is treated with derision by many of the men there.

The attitudes in this thread bother me. It would be different if we were discussing something that ONLY occurs in fictitious lands, but rape and slavery are blights on society that occur constantly today. It kind of disappoints me to see people being so flippant about them.

[Stannistician]

You make some good points, but I disagree cut it anyway you want he seeks out women because he enjoys sex, wanting to feel love might be part of it, but I assure you if you take out the sex and leave in only the love they pretend to have for him he would not seek out the women but grow bored.

GRRM is not clear whether the whores in Westeros offer the "girl friend experience", but it does appear that this is what he purchased from Shae at least. But I do agree that when he was in Essos he appeared to only want sex, and I also agree that sex with a slave is rape.

[AsoiafFTW!]

idk, im judging him (and other characters like the tarlynator) as if i were a 300ish westerosi/essosi

[E-Ro]

The thing about slavery though is that slaves don't have rights. They don't give their consent for anything. They are property. Their master is the one who gives consent, not the slaves.

Yes, exactly when a person cant give consent it is rape. To me tyrion is a rapist, and honestly it is alarming to me that so many find his behaviour acceptable. I do feel sorry for him, he has had it tuff(better then most in westeros though) but this does not give him a free pass to do whatever and not be judged.

[Kittykatknits]

I love how Tyrion is called a rapist in this forum all the time. If Tyrion was such a rapist pig why didn't he have sex with Sansa?

Sex with a slave is rape today but it wasn't in the past and it's not in Essos.

Like I said in an earlier post Tyrion found "love" in whores in the past. He gets to Essos and wants to feel loved so he goes to a brothel. Unlike Westeros where slavery is illegial, slavery is legal in Essos and all the whores are slaves. Instead of feeling loved by the slave prostitute, Tyrion feels like a monster.

Do you think any of the slave girls are enthustic about the men that have to have sex with? Nope. They are slaves and their job is to have sex. If Tyrion is a rapist then practically every man who has sex with a whore in Essos must be considered a rapist. Considering how popular brothels are in ASOIAF you would be calling hundreds of thousands if not millions of men rapists.

Rape is forcing yourself on someone. Tyrion paid for sex and received sex. If he just jumped some random slave and forced himself on her he would be a rapist.

Just because slavery is wrong on so many levels doesn't mean that people who lived in cultues with slavery were all evil. The cultural normals are way different than today and made things we would consider terrible today were perfectly normal to other cultures.

I do think this is an interesting question - is it inherently rape when someone has sex at a brothel in Essos, or is it the way Tyrion goes about it that makes what happens so problematic? I am genuinely not sure. What i remember was being very disturbed primarily by the second time he had sex with the slave in the brothel.

The phrase "culture of rape" is very relevant here I think.

[Liar]

Yes, I agree. I dont like tyrion at all, imo he is greatly overatted by many fans. He has some good qualities, but too many bad ones.

I'm a Tyrion fan and I don't like him because he is goody and benevolent and prefect. I like for his rights and his wrongs, good aspects, bad aspects, I can relate with him, I like him as a whole. I think the rest of Tyrion's fans would feel the same.

[Elder Sister]

Yes, exactly when a person cant give consent it is rape. To me tyrion is a rapist, and honestly it is alarming to me that so many find his behaviour acceptable. I do feel sorry for him, he has had it tuff(better then most in westeros though) but this does not give him a free pass to do whatever and not be judged.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!

[Stubby]

[MOD]

No more discussion about the definition of rape, please.

This topic has been hashed, rehashed and debated to distraction on these boards in recent times and it is presently not permitted airtime.

Suspensions will follow if it continues.

[/MOD]

[AsoiafFTW!]

tyrion is loved thanks to peter dinklage, at least by the new fans.

[E-Ro]

Because Tyrion doesn't live in the 21st century?

He lives in the world of ASOIAF and Essos is place where slavery is perfectly legal and normal.

If we do this no one can blame gregor for killing elia and her children, Its a hostile takeover perfectly normal.

Tywin sanctioned the destruction of the riverlands, it perfectly normal.

The starks doublcrossed the freys, it perfectly normal the freys kill them.

Theon killed two kids, perfectly legal and normal.

Ramsay flays people hes the lord, perfectly legal and normal.

Where does it stop? Lots of things are perfectly normal and legal in westeros/essos but it does not change the fact that they are wrong.

[Field of Asphodel]

You make some good points, but I disagree cut it anyway you want he seeks out women because he enjoys sex, wanting to feel love might be part of it, but I assure you if you take out the sex and leave in only the love they pretend to have for him he would not seek out the women but grow bored.

No, his primary reason is he wants to be loved, though he probably enjoys having sex as much as the next man. If all he truly cared about was sex, he would've had sex with Alayaya and the other prostitute girl whose name I don't remember, but he didn't 'cause at the time he'd deluded himself into thinking Shae loved him as much as he loved her. The love of one woman was all he needed then, though he learned only later that he didn't even have that.

Then there's this. I think Cersei pretty much nails him in ACOK:

Cersei: "Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease."

[AsoiafFTW!]

If we do this no one can blame gregor for killing elia and her children, Its a hostile takeover perfectly normal.

Tywin sanctioned the destruction of the riverlands, it perfectly normal.

The starks doublcrossed the freys, it perfectly normal the freys kill them.

Theon killed two kids, perfectly legal and normal.

Ramsay flays people hes the lord, perfectly legal and normal.

Where does it stop? Lots of things are perfectly normal and legal in westeros/essos but it does not change the fact that they are wrong.

even our beloved ned chop off heads, but the point is that some things are just to wrong even by westerosi standars.

[Kittykatknits]

Because Tyrion doesn't live in the 21st century?

He lives in the world of ASOIAF and Essos is place where slavery is perfectly legal and normal.

But we are 21st century readers reading a book written by a 21st century writer who brings his 21st century values and morals to the work. This isn't historical fiction, it's fantasy. The entire thing is made up and only superficially represents a medieval world. There are elements of our modern world and some Victorianism thrown in for fun. Beyond this, Martin has said he writes these books to be read more than once, he fills it with morally ambiguous characters who do many, many questionable acts. In such a complex series, why would we not pass judgment and question what these characters do? I think the text demands that we do these things. We are not passive participants here. We are reading a complex series that requires a large amount of thinking to understand the politics, figure out foreshadowing, and question the POV structure. Personally, I find the idea that we can not judge because the culture is different that ours to be completely mystifying.

[Kittykatknits]

If we do this no one can blame gregor for killing elia and her children, Its a hostile takeover perfectly normal.

Tywin sanctioned the destruction of the riverlands, it perfectly normal.

The starks doublcrossed the freys, it perfectly normal the freys kill them.

Theon killed two kids, perfectly legal and normal.

Ramsay flays people hes the lord, perfectly legal and normal.

Where does it stop? Lots of things are perfectly normal and legal in westeros/essos but it does not change the fact that they are wrong.

To add to this, Tyrion was a dwarf and a freak. According to Westeros, Tywin would have been completely justified by having him killed. It would have been perfectly normal.

Yet, this argument doesn't make sense to us, does it?

[l3ol3o]

If we do this no one can blame gregor for killing elia and her children, Its a hostile takeover perfectly normal.

Tywin sanctioned the destruction of the riverlands, it perfectly normal.

The starks doublcrossed the freys, it perfectly normal the freys kill them.

Theon killed two kids, perfectly legal and normal.

Ramsay flays people hes the lord, perfectly legal and normal.

Where does it stop? Lots of things are perfectly normal and legal in westeros/essos but it does not change the fact that they are wrong.

What Gregor did is looked down upon in the ASOIAF world.

What Tywin did is also looked down upon.

Murder and breaking guest rights are looked down upon.

Theon is despised for what he did.

Ramsey is also hated.

Your missing the point. All the things you listed are still bad in the world of ASOIF. What Tyrion did is was normal though and went along with cultural standards in Essos.

No, his primary reason is he wants to be loved, though he probably enjoys having sex as much as the next man. If all he truly cared about was sex, he would've had sex with Alayaya and the other prostitute girl whose name I don't remember, but he didn't 'cause at the time he'd deluded himself into thinking Shae loved him as much as he loved her. The love of one woman was all he needed then, though he learned only later that he didn't even have that.

Then there's this. I think Cersei pretty much nails him in ACOK:

Cersei: "Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease."

And Sansa. He wanted Sansa to love him though. If all he wanted was sex then he would crawl into bed every night and have his way with her ala Drogo and Dany. With Sansa Tyrion was delusional thinking that Sansa would actually love him one day.

[E-Ro]

No, his primary reason is he wants to be loved, though he probably enjoys having sex as much as the next man. If all he truly cared about was sex, he would've had sex with Alayaya and the other prostitute girl whose name I don't remember, but he didn't 'cause at the time he'd deluded himself into thinking Shae loved him as much as he loved her. The love of one woman was all he needed then, though he learned only later that he didn't even have that.

Then there's this. I think Cersei pretty much nails him in ACOK:

Cersei: "Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease."

He did not sleep with alaya because in his opinion shae was better looking, he even thinks as much to himself. Regarding cercei, she says lots of things, I think she is wrong on this one. If he wants to feel loved so badly why not just hang around jaime, or keep the same girl around? He goes through women vey quickly shae seems an anomaly.