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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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There could be a variety of ways. GRRm might deconstruct the "hidden heir" trope and let him give up the throne. The throne may not be important at all and it willbe his heritage of the two lineages, of dragonlords and wargs, that will play a role in the fight against the Others. Finally, he is sworn to Night's Watch till he dies - so, if he dies and is resurrected, the oath is technically not binding him any more, or his sworn brothers may just kick him out.

Additionally there may not be a NW at all by the end of this so it might be moot.

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But what about the rest of the Night's Watch? I mean, they already supposedly killed him because he wanted to march south?(Unless, of course, Mellisandre plans something and that was not the reason he was killed)

We dont know that all the NW were in on attacking Jon

We sure dont know why they were attacking him.

We dont know he's dead.

Mel is always planning something :)

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We dont know that all the NW were in on attacking Jon

We sure dont know why they were attacking him.

We dont know he's dead.

Mel is always planning something :)

I know Mel's always planning something. It is known. :D

Other thing I have always wondered, though, is how it would be discovered that he's their son? Any theories?

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Other thing I have always wondered, though, is how it would be discovered that he's their son? Any theories?

Two of the more popular theories are that Howland Reed will reveal the news if/when he ever enters the story as more than just a hidden character or Bran will reveal it somehow after he sees something in the weirwoodnet.

My guess is that it will not matter at all to Jon as his father was the one who raised him, which was Ned.

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I always assumed the ToJ was simply an old, forgotten, abandoned tower. What we know about it suggests it was a lookout tower built in a strategic place, that probably held ravens in the old days, and was used to alert the castles nearby if any armies were seen trying to invade Dornish territories through the Prince's Pass. Not only that, but what little I remember of medieval history is that simple towers belong to the first centuries of medieval age. If we're to draw a parallel between Westeros and our history, well... look at all the other castles we've come across - they're all more complex structures, indicating Westeros is already in another architectonic moment. There are probably other towers like that one in the main series, but the only one I can remember is that of that old knight Dunk works for in "The Sworn Sword" - a simple tower whose structure matches what little we know of the ToJ, and it's explicitly stated it's an old building - another moment.

Finally, okay, maybe a simple tower could be built in that short space of time between Harrenhall and Lyanna's disappearance. But there's no way, with that technology and no magic, they could build a safe place that could resist any army trying to break through even for a short period of time while waiting for an army from Starfall or the Reach to get to them and help. Really, if they chose to build something with less than a year available it would be more simple to make a farmhouse and disguise as peasants than a tower that would attract the attention of anyone who passed by, even if it were close to no one, and would barely be capable of standing against an attack.

Thanks Lady O,

That makes sense. :idea:

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Two of the more popular theories are that Howland Reed will reveal the news if/when he ever enters the story as more than just a hidden character or Bran will reveal it somehow after he sees something in the weirwoodnet.

My guess is that it will not matter at all to Jon as his father was the one who raised him, which was Ned.

Meera seems to know - see her story of the knight of the laughing tree - she could tell Bran who could tell Jon.

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Dr. Pepper's post reminded me of an old discussion that came back every once in a while in the previous threads: Jon's reaction to learning about his parents. What I realized is that most people confessed they would be disappointed if he embraced that identity and would rather he simply consider Ned is father even after finding out the whole story. If he had actually been abandoned by Rhaegar and Lyanna I would agree with this and hope he simply ignore the rest of the story, but that was not the case: the only reason why Ned had to raise him in the first place was because they died. I think it would be extremely unfair of him to simply dismiss his parentage under the circumstances. It's not that I think he should forsake Ned, just that things are more complicated than simply ignoring he's a Targaryen or that his Stark parent is a different person.

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King Doug,

I had wondered about the construction of the TOJ as well, and thought the same as you.

If two men could practically tear it down for Cairns for the dead, it sounds slightly ominous.

I would think the Martels would know just about every fortress in their territory, so yeah, it sounds as if it had been hastily built if it wasn't on the map, which I thought I heard it was not.

I wonder if Rhaegar started on it, or commissioned Dayne to build it right after Harrenhal given he took Lyanna a year later?

If it has at least a year to be constructed,(and for a fortress of that time, and probably with the least amount of workers to not raise suspicions, a year is still probably a short time) it might give it some substance, but it would also mean that Rhaegar meant to take Lyanna as early as right after Harrenhal, and before Aegons birth, not knowing at that point Elia could have no more children, which also means that it was more than needing a "third head" since he didn't know Elia would be unable to have children.

The fact she does end up infertile after Aegons birth either means Rhaegar had a prophetic vision he actually got right, or he meant to take Lyanna anyway, and Elia's infertility coupled with Rhaegars superstitions provided the justification.

Hastily built used to make the most sense to me for the same reason, the Dornish probably know of all the fortresses/towers in their region. But Lady O's post makes a whole lot of sense...

I always assumed the ToJ was simply an old, forgotten, abandoned tower. What we know about it suggests it was a lookout tower built in a strategic place, that probably held ravens in the old days, and was used to alert the castles nearby if any armies were seen trying to invade Dornish territories through the Prince's Pass. Not only that, but what little I remember of medieval history is that simple towers belong to the first centuries of medieval age. If we're to draw a parallel between Westeros and our history, well... look at all the other castles we've come across - they're all more complex structures, indicating Westeros is already in another architectonic moment. There are probably other towers like that one in the main series, but the only one I can remember is that of that old knight Dunk works for in "The Sworn Sword" - a simple tower whose structure matches what little we know of the ToJ, and it's explicitly stated it's an old building - another moment.

Finally, okay, maybe a simple tower could be built in that short space of time between Harrenhall and Lyanna's disappearance. But there's no way, with that technology and no magic, they could build a safe place that could resist any army trying to break through even for a short period of time while waiting for an army from Starfall or the Reach to get to them and help. Really, if they chose to build something with less than a year available it would be more simple to make a farmhouse and disguise as peasants than a tower that would attract the attention of anyone who passed by, even if it were close to no one, and would barely be capable of standing against an attack.

You are probably right, well said.

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Hastily built used to make the most sense to me for the same reason, the Dornish probably know of all the fortresses/towers in their region. But Lady O's post makes a whole lot of sense...

You are probably right, well said.

Yeah, Rhaegar doesn't exactly strike me as "Bob the Builder."

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A series of horrible jokes and I'm laughing at them all. I love you guys. :love:

And we're probably not even warmed up yet. :laugh:

Don't get me started on Joffrey and his inability to stay out of everybodys "slap" range, :blink: especially Tyrions, but thats another thread.

Hugs :kiss:

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And we're probably not even warmed up yet. :laugh:

Don't get me started on Joffrey and his inability to stay out of everybodys "slap" range, :blink: especially Tyrions, but thats another thread.

Hugs :kiss:

HAHAHAHA I forgot about the 18 inch slap range jokes. Good times

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Okay King Doug, this is for you. :thumbsup:

I think it's safe to say Tyrion is a fan of "hands-on" parenting.

HOLY CRAP that's an awesome video! Already watched it 3 times. I love listening to Joff whimper. How friggin stupid do you have to be? Just take a half step backwards Joffy, better yet, just stand up straight. IT'S ONLY 18 INCHES!

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To return to talk about towers I just came upon an interesting quote from Arianne chapter:

Beneath the burning sun of Dorne, wealth was measured as much in water as in gold, so every well was zealously guarded.

Was there a well near ToJ no one knew about? Or were they bringing all their watter from somewhere else, I can't imagine the location remaining secret for too long in that case. Not to mention man power needed for that.

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I know practically no one doubts r+l=j anymore and there are enough relevant clues. but since I just started my re-read, I thought it wouldn't hurt to drop a few quotes n' clues from the books. from catelyn's first pov in agot:

"whoever jon's mother had been, ned must have loved her fiercely [...]" >>> well, ned loved his sister deeply

"he is my blood, and that is all you need to know" from catelyn's recollection of a conversation with ned.

so from the first pages of the whole asoiaf series we already have clues that no matter what, jon is ned's blood (be it as son or nephew, even though we can only talk about the nephew business in hindsight) and also that there is a lot of secrecy surrounding the whole parentage. I remember being really puzzled as to why talk about jon's mother was such a big deal. and that was before I realized that grrm doesn's put info out there lightly.

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Yeah, Rhaegar doesn't exactly strike me as "Bob the Builder."

Surely you meant "Brandon the Builder" ;) Hahaha

LOL :D

I know practically no one doubts r+l=j anymore and there are enough relevant clues. but since I just started my re-read, I thought it wouldn't hurt to drop a few quotes n' clues from the books. from catelyn's first pov in agot:

"whoever jon's mother had been, ned must have loved her fiercely [...]" >>> well, ned loved his sister deeply

"he is my blood, and that is all you need to know" from catelyn's recollection of a conversation with ned.

so from the first pages of the whole asoiaf series we already have clues that no matter what, jon is ned's blood (be it as son or nephew, even though we can only talk about the nephew business in hindsight) and also that there is a lot of secrecy surrounding the whole parentage. I remember being really puzzled as to why talk about jon's mother was such a big deal. and that was before I realized that grrm doesn's put info out there lightly.

Book number one was definitely the most revealing because we have Ned's POV. So first and foremost there is the dialogue at ToJ with the KG (which in my most humble opinion says it all. "We swore a vow...") and of course many of Ned's inner dialogues. For example the one about rhaegar when he visits the brothel. Why speak well of someone who kidnapped/raped your sister? Ned never talks negatively about him. Au contraire, Robert does. Which probably means they knew two very different versios of what happened.

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