What are the odds of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together?

[Ser_Patreck]

You got it. I´d rather not have it again

Clash, Chapter 44 Tyrion.

This was the turning point for me. Up till then I liked Tyrion a lot, probably most.

(I didn´t take his thoughts of raveging the Vale in revenge as an impulse he probably wouldn´t have carried out in the worst form, later I saw that Tyrion, when feeling offended tends to mortal lashes of wrath.)

But participating in a gang rape of a woman he claimed to have loved, even though he was thirteen and forced by his father, is stepping beyond the evil event horizon, in my view. Even with his insecurity his readyness to believe Jaime´s lie and his fathers claim that she was just after his money, this love was just about himself. Had he truly loved Tysha he´d have trusted her. Tyrion never learned to love since, he´s a trainwreck when it comes to relationship with women and I have the feeling that the rest of his social skills isn´t much better he will never trust and always feel hard done by. (Unless, maybe when he sees Jorah´s pathetic inability to see a woman as more than a pretty status symbol that lifts his social status, he will acknowledge these faults and start to work on them.)

ETA: Missing parts.

Is this an example of... "Always managing to solicit sympathy for Tyrion even when he is behaving odiously and participating in terrible action"?

I respectfully disagree. This is an example of the twisted tale of a child victim of sexual abuse by his own father (Which, in no way, lessens Tysha's own trial) that, yes, causes sympathy because, goddamn, it's horrible and it was cruel and it was torture of innocents. Frankly, using this as an example of... "Tyrion favouritism"... Is exemplar of my difficulty to understand the concept.

In most fandoms I've been in, "such and such is clearly the author's favourite and has plot armor" is just an euphemism for "I hate this particular character and I wish the author had never written him and he can't have nice things happening to him, ever!"

Case in point: "Tyrion deserves nothing."

ETA: And quite frankly, I prefer this one, even if it's a tad bit non-canon. :D

[Kittykatknits]

so are you saying he'd oblige/participate in any gang rape of Sansa also? In that case, I'm even more against it now.

Gang rape? No. Do I think he would eventually rape Sansa if they were still together? Quite possibly, yes. I wasn't certain of this after reading Storm but I am now after having read Dance.

I would rather see sansa with Jon Snow - an idea I find totally repulsive because they grew up as brother and sister - than with Tyrion!

I said pretty much the exact same thing in another thread earlier today. I also do not like the idea of Sansa with Jon at all but I'd prefer it over her being with Tyrion.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Gang rape? No. Do I think he would eventually rape Sansa if they were still together? Quite possibly, yes. I wasn't certain of this after reading Storm but I am now after having read Dance.

I said pretty much the exact same thing in another thread earlier today. I also do not like the idea of Sansa with Jon at all but I'd prefer it over her being with Tyrion.

At least Jon and Sansa would have something to talk about. And Ghost.

[Kittykatknits]

At least Jon and Sansa would have something to talk about. And Ghost.

And their family didn't try to kill each other or go to war against each other. And double bonus- he never kept her a prisoner or married her against her will.

[Pellaeon]

Gang rape? No. Do I think he would eventually rape Sansa if they were still together? Quite possibly, yes. I wasn't certain of this after reading Storm but I am now after having read Dance.

Tyrion wouldn't rape Sansa, he wouldn't force her to stay with him. He wants to be loved and liked, or different: he wouldn't gain anything out of this

[Ser_Patreck]

Tyrion wouldn't rape Sansa, he wouldn't force her to stay with him. He wants to be loved and liked, or different: he wouldn't gain anything out of this

No, man. He would totally rape her. No reason, just to be an ass. That's how Tyrion rolls.

/Sarcasm warning, for the uninitiated.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

The bigger question is, why would either of them want to? It was not a good marriage for either of them. It's not like Tyrion got anything good emotionally. He got a useless claim on Winterfell since Bran and Rickton are still alive.

Sansa-getting-over-Tyrion's-appearance-and-coming-to-love-Tyrion-for-who-he-is only makes sense if you ignore all her character growth since the beginning of the novels and ignore the little things like the large amounts of physical and emotional abuse she has to face. Sure, Tyrion wasn't a part of that, but it makes sense she considers him on of her captors regardless.

So, without that, wouldn't they both be better with other people?

[brashcandy]

ETA: And quite frankly, I prefer this one, even if it's a tad bit non-canon. :D

That's the entire problem with San/Tyr shipping. It has no basis in textual reality, but readers just ignore that minor point.

[Kittykatknits]

Tyrion wouldn't rape Sansa, he wouldn't force her to stay with him. He wants to be loved and liked, or different: he wouldn't gain anything out of this

I was looking through the text, and I found his thoughts on how she'd close her eyes and do her duty if he decided to claim his rights. There was also his bitter thought on how her vows meant little to her. Then, in Dance, he thinks all the women in his life, including Sansa are false. But I didn't find anything that shows he would let her go or give her an annulment. Can you show me something from the text that would support your statement?

ETA: And quite frankly, I prefer this one, even if it's a tad bit non-canon. :D

I think the "non-canon" is an important point here.

[Pellaeon]

I was looking through the text, and I found his thoughts on how she'd close her eyes and do her duty if he decided to claim his rights. There was also his bitter thought on how her vows meant little to her. Then, in Dance, he thinks all the women in his life, including Sansa are false. But I didn't find anything that shows he would let her go or give her an annulment. Can you show me something from the text that would support your statement?

I haven't the books here but Tyrion behavior shows that he want to be loved, accepted and liked, to force somebody to stay with him seems out of character, at least when he alone can decide

[Ser_Patreck]

That's the entire problem with San/Tyr shipping. It has no basis in textual reality, but readers just ignore that minor point.

That's the entire problem with shipping, period. If you think canon-compliance, character interaction and pure logic have anything to do with shipping, I'm sorry to inform you don't understand shipping that much.

I think the "non-canon" is an important point here.

Important to my enjoyment of good art? No it isn't. ETA: I mean, the same artist has done some pieces of Euron Greyjoy and Oberyn/Darkstar that are gorgeous. Even tough I despise both Euron and Darkstar.

[Naathi Prince]

and yea, I think its kind of amusing that on the same board where people are absolutely horrified over Drogo and Dany's first, there's support for Tyrion and Sansa. Lets leave aside the fact that Tyrion's family brought death and destruction to Sansa's mother father and older brother (all of the people who she expected to be able to defend her), the fact that Tyrion is not only a dwarf, but an especilly misshapen ugly dwarf (he doesn't even have a nose), and the fact that he's mostly drunk all the time and isn't particularly a nice guy. She's 13 years old. Hopefully she doesn't have to marry anyone for another 3 years at least.

I never understood shipping, and for the most part, I don't think "Nedbert" and most of the other ludicrous ideas have any place here. Go to a fan fiction site.

[brashcandy]

That's the entire problem with shipping, period. If you think canon-compliance, character interaction and pure logic have anything to do with shipping, I'm sorry to inform you don't understand shipping that much.

Please Ser_Patreck. The point here is that most proponents of farfetched ships have the decency to admit it's fantasy or highly unlikely. Tyr/San enthusiasts (at least the ones I've met on this board) on the other hand, like to pretend that they could actually work if they got to know one another, and put aside those bothersome "disagreements." This is what I find ridiculous, and personally galling.

[mcb]

Is this an example of... "Always managing to solicit sympathy for Tyrion even when he is behaving odiously and participating in terrible action"?

I respectfully disagree. This is an example of the twisted tale of a child victim of sexual abuse by his own father (Which, in no way, lessens Tysha's own trial) that, yes, causes sympathy because, goddamn, it's horrible and it was cruel and it was torture of innocents. Frankly, using this as an example of... "Tyrion favouritism"... Is exemplar of my difficulty to understand the concept.

Come on. He got an erection, hence he was an eager and willing participant, case closed. That's why a man can't be raped, as everyone knows.

Yup, I find that argument disturbing, too.

[Ser_Patreck]

Please Ser_Patreck. The point here is that most proponents of farfetched ships have the decency to admit it's fantasy or highly unlikely. Tyr/San enthusiasts (at least the ones I've met on this board) on the other hand, like to pretend that they could actually work if they got to know one another, and put aside those bothersome "disagreements." This is what I find ridiculous, and personally galling.

They could, tough. THe fact that you, personally, for your own reasons, can't see it happening, doesn't mean it's an impossibility.

The entire problem is that you seem to consider the slightest mention of Tyrion/Sansa interaction (Even non-romantic) as a personal insult.

[Kukushka]

LOL. Understatement of the year. And how can two people be considered a "good match" when Sansa could not bear to even have Tyrion touch her? Come on now...

I mean, you know, apart from that ;)

But seriously, they were both suited to court life, both have enough goodness to treat each other kindly, both rather clever... If Sansa could have gotten over seeing Tyrion as just a Lannister, I do think that they could have actually had a really good marriage.

[Lykos]

I haven't the books here but Tyrion behavior shows that he want to be loved, accepted and liked, to force somebody to stay with him seems out of character, at least when he alone can decide

Yes, but that´s not the problem.

<snip>

Clash chapter 52 Sansa

In the same chapter Cersei assesses Robert and Tyrion. I think it´s quite witty, but she draws the wrong conclusion, that wanting to be loved is the weakness, while in truth the weakness is their inability to love, Robert for lack of devotion and Tyrion for his lack of self-esteem. It boils down to lack of faith in both cases.

Ser Patreck, my problem with Tyrion is, that he keeps this incident alive by reenacting his marriage with his "first love" and yet doesn´t accept that this was a crime he needs to come to terms with. (And I too put a large portion of the blame on Tywin, but that doesn´t relieve Tyrion of his guilt)

I was merrily identifying myself a lot with Tyrion at that point and though I did hurt some friends in jealousy in my young teens, I couldn´t come to grips with Tyrion´s action towards Tysha, no matter how hard I tried. I see no way to forgive him for that especially since he doesn´t adress his guilt in a proper way, but only in this perverted roleplaying that shows that emotionally he knows ´s convinced that this was his one true love, he betrayed.

And even though he gives the good advise to Jon Snow to accept who he is and make it his strength, he himself is incapable of this. He believes that being a Lannister defines his only value, it´s so sad and such a waste. Of course part of the blame goes to the society of Westeros, but other people in the story are capeable of it and Tyrion with all his abilities should be too.

[Kittykatknits]

That's the entire problem with shipping, period. If you think canon-compliance, character interaction and pure logic have anything to do with shipping, I'm sorry to inform you don't understand shipping that much.

Important to my enjoyment of good art? No it isn't. ETA: I mean, the same artist has done some pieces of Euron Greyjoy and Oberyn/Darkstar that are gorgeous. Even tough I despise both Euron and Darkstar.

This isn't a shipping thread though. The OP asked the odds of them staying together, based upon evidence from the books.

They could, tough. THe fact that you, personally, for your own reasons, can't see it happening, doesn't mean it's an impossibility.

The entire problem is that you seem to consider the slightest mention of Tyrion/Sansa interaction (Even non-romantic) as a personal insult.

Actually, I and many others have said we have no problem with a non-romantic alliance, despite what you seem to think. The point we are refuting is that this marriage can be successful in any way.

I mean, you know, apart from that ;)

But seriously, they were both suited to court life, both have enough goodness to treat each other kindly, both rather clever... If Sansa could have gotten over seeing Tyrion as just a Lannister, I do think that they could have actually had a really good marriage.

Get over being a Lannister? He is a member of a family that destroyed her own and kept her a prisoner. It's like telling someone that their former kidnapper would be a great love match. Completely unrealistic.

[The Mother of The Others]

If Sansa could have gotten over seeing Tyrion as just a Lannister, I do think that they could have actually had a really good marriage.

when he rides in on dragonback and torches the castle at KL where Sansa suffered so much, that'll go a long ways toward him not being seen as one of the hated Lannisters. A Lannister, but less hated, and disassociated from the ones who caused her pain.

And I'm not saying they'd tongue each other real hard in the hallways of the highschool during every break between classes. It wouldn't be about heat. It'd be about LF being on the verge of forcing Sansa into some arranged crap all over again and Tyrion landing on the patio of the castle and saying Not so fast buddy boy, because I see now that you caused this entire war so your scam is up, and Sansa seeing that she's being given a way out, and her taking a leap of faith and getting away from LF, and Tyrion forgetting about where whores go (having been taught by the poignant loss of Penny [to disease] that he does have the capacity to care for someone still) and Sansa sacrificing her childhood dreams of dashing knights in order to do what's best for getting the north back on its feet again in troubled times.

[Buried Treasure]

Sure... I'll go check my book on that. Of course that as of Book 1 the mentions are very vague, such as a Tyrion noticing that Sansa is very sweet and pretty etc... when I get home I will try to find the exact pages.

Even if everyone were to accept that what you are noticing is foreshadowing it doesn't follow that it is indicating Sansa and Tyrion getting together in Book 6 or later. Foreshadowing of something between Sansa and Tyrion in Book 1 and 2 fits as something important did happen between them in Book 3. Their marriage and subsequent strained non-relationship has definitely made an irony out of Tyrion earlier noticing that Sansa is sweet / would make a good wife.

Sansa and Tyrion wouldn't choose each other, one of them would have to have a complete personality transplant for them to be a compatible pair - they don't understand each other at all. They could probably accept each other in a loveless political match but at this point who would want to broker such a match? Stark and Lannister have enough emnity that they are not going to ally (and seal the deal with a marriage) and if anybody brings all the regions back under the Iron Throne they are not going to gain anything by ordering Sansa and Tyrion to get together.