"Targaryens are Fireproof" and Other Common Misconceptions

[Mladen]

She knew a lot more than that. She knew the situation was very dangerous, she knew her father was sending them away for their own safety and she knew that three of his men including Jorey had just been killed. She may not have expected Ned to be executed, but she knew he was going to get punished and she knew that it would probably come to blood.

I doubt that. Since it`s nowhere hinted in any of her POVs that she was aware of severity of conflict between Lannisters and Starks. I think she saw Jaime as culprunt here and Cersei as a friend.

Your initial claim is actually that it is a misconception that Sansa is responsible.

Has anyone ever remotely reasonably blamed solely Sansa for Ned's death/downfall (i.e. somehow turning Joffrey's decision to take his head to her fault)? No

Has anyone blamed Sansa partially for his death/downfall? Yes

Is this a misconception? No

My initial claim, although not very well presented, was about Ned`s death. And Sansa had nothing to do with that... Nobody could have stopped Joffrey when he asked for Ned`s head. Not Varys, not Cersei, not Sansa. Sansa had its share in Ned`s imprisonment, less than Ned himself, but she had nothing with his death.

I consider death part of downfall, dont you?

So Sansa cant be blamed for her actions because shes only 12? Why does this argument work for Sansa and not Dany?

GRRM likes ambiguity, and I think here, where discussion was about imprisonment, downfall meant only that. Since death isn`t Sansa`s fault. He basically couldn`t have gone against what he wrote in the books. And in the books, Ned`s death is completely on Joffrey.

At the time of AGOT, Dany was 14, and in ADWD she is 17-18, so what has she done when she was 12 that we are judging? Sansa was 11 at the beginning of AGOT.

[A Crow Come Over]

GRRM likes ambiguity, and I think here, where discussion was about imprisonment, downfall meant only that. Since death isn`t Sansa`s fault. He basically couldn`t have gone against what he wrote in the books. And in the books, Ned`s death is completely on Joffrey.

I guess I cant argue with someone who has a telepathic link to the authors brain.

[Mladen]

I guess I cant argue with someone who has a telepathic link to the authors brain.

You just can`t argue with poor arguments, that`s all. We don`t know whether he meant death too, but we do know what we have in books. I suggest reading them, quite useful that might be for you.

[mrunderhill]

I doubt that. Since it`s nowhere hinted in any of her POVs that she was aware of severity of conflict between Lannisters and Starks. I think she saw Jaime as culprunt here and Cersei as a friend.

No Ned tells her outright of the danger.

"Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do?

But say nothing of this. It's better if no one knows of our plans. We'll talk again tomorrow.

Sansa is aware the situation is bad, but still chooses to betray her family.

[Kienn]

His downfall and death are connected.

Had Sansa done nothing, the situation of his downfall would have been different. Perhaps psycho Joffrey would not have been so offended in this alternate downfall that he wouldn't have felt the need to take Ned's head.

Personally I think just Sansa's absence may have meant Joffrey may have let him go. To him he was proving his manhood by "beating" someone in front of Sansa, who saw him lose to a girl.

[Mladen]

No Ned tells her outright of the danger.

"Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do?

But say nothing of this. It's better if no one knows of our plans. We'll talk again tomorrow.

Sansa is aware the situation is bad, but still chooses to betray her family.

She is aware that situation is precarious, but as I recall, she puts all the blame on Jaime. It`s not like she knew her father would be killed and walked to Cersei with that knowledge. All in her POV indicates she disobbeyed her father so Cersei could reason with him. It`s not like she knowingly sold out her entire family, knowing they`ll kill all of them.

[A Crow Come Over]

You just can`t argue with poor arguments, that`s all. We don`t know whether he meant death too, but we do know what we have in books. I suggest reading them, quite useful that might be for you.

Sansa shares some responsibility over what happened to Ned, including death, which GRRM confirmed. So now you resort to insulting people who contradict you. Keep it classy.

[Mladen]

Sansa shares some responsibility over what happened to Ned, including death, which GRRM confirmed. So now you resort to insulting people who contradict you. Keep it classy.

I haven`t offended you, I just replied on your comment I have mental link with the author. I merely had a suggestion that as I can see can benefit you greatly. Read the books, and until then leave the discussion to those that actually did. GRRM, again, left things ambiguous, not telling us: `She is blame for his death`. Until I hear that from his mouth, I`ll stick to what`s written in the books. And as for keeping it classy, you `advice` would actually mean something, if you don`t attack me without reason on each possible thread... So, right back at you.

[mrunderhill]

She is aware that situation is precarious, but as I recall, she puts all the blame on Jaime. It`s not like she knew her father would be killed and walked to Cersei with that knowledge. All in her POV indicates she disobbeyed her father so Cersei could reason with him. It`s not like she knowingly sold out her entire family, knowing they`ll kill all of them.

She may not have thought her father would be killed, but she knew he would be punished and must have assumed more men would die. She was not as naive as you want to make out. It was not the first time she had sold out her family either.

[Mladen]

She may not have thought her father would be killed, but she knew he would be punished and must have assumed more men would die. She was not as naive as you want to make out. It was not the first time she had sold out her family either.

Are we going to that Mycah incident again... She was that naive, and I can`t get how people see her both understanding all the intricacies of the Game and being stupid. Make a choice, for God`s sake. Either she is back-stabbing player, or a pawn. YOu can`t have it both ways.

As for selling out family, she just showed how close she is to Stark roots. Arya maybe got Lyanna`s looks, but Sansa got her heart and soul.

[A Crow Come Over]

As for selling out family, she just showed how close she is to Stark roots. Arya maybe got Lyanna`s looks, but Sansa got her heart and soul.

I can't believe I just read that.

Sansa loves lemoncakes and songs about knights, Lyanna loved riding and swordplay.

Conversely, Lyanna was described as comely while Arya is "horsefaced", I think you got it backwards.

[King of Winters]

I can't believe I just read that.

Sansa loves lemoncakes and songs about knights, Lyanna loved riding and swordplay, what are you talking about?

Conversely, Lyanna was described as comely while Arya is "horsefaced", I think got it backwards.

She also cried when Rhaegar played his harp.

And it's just Jeyne Poole saying that Arya has a "horseface". No one else.

[The guy from the Vale]

Arya is described as looking like Lyanna in the books.

As for the character, Lyanna can best be seen as a mixture of Arya and Sansa, I think, taking either one as the blueprint for Lyanna's behavior would be missing half or more of her character.

[A Crow Come Over]

Arya is described as looking like Lyanna in the books.

As for the character, Lyanna can best be seen as a mixture of Arya and Sansa, I think, taking either one as the blueprint for Lyanna's behavior would be missing half or more of her character.

Later she starts being described as looking like Lyanna as well but I think that is also because she acts so much like her.

[Mladen]

I can't believe I just read that.

Sansa loves lemoncakes and songs about knights, Lyanna loved riding and swordplay.

Conversely, Lyanna was described as comely while Arya is "horsefaced", I think you got it backwards.

Yes you have read that, and in the books there are so many parallels between Lyanna`s and Sansa`s stories.

And as KotS siad, Lyanna did cry when she heard Rhaegar singing...

As for the character, Lyanna can best be seen as a mixture of Arya and Sansa, I think, taking either one as the blueprint for Lyanna's behavior would be missing half or more of her character.

I was heading towards this. I have explored all three Stark ladies for my Animal project, and Lyanna`s story wonderfully parallels both girls...

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

How about....

Roose is some shrewd political mind. In reality he's an opportunistic pragmatist.

[Zman1863]

The debate about Sansa's responsibility for Ned's death as opposed to his imprisonment puts me in mind of the principles of causation in negligence cases in US Tort law. In order to find a person liable for negligence there must be proof that their negligent action was a cause in fact (their action led to injury) and that the cause was proximate (that the injury was foreseeable when the negligent action was taken), The proximate/foreseeable cause requirement exists because virtually any action can be considered a factual cause for virtually any result. Just as Sansa's going to the queen is certainly one of the factual causes of both Ned's imprisonment and execution, so is Arya's decision to befriend Mycah.

Was the result of Ned's death foreseeable, capable of being anticipated, at the time Sansa went to Cersei? Under an objective standard, I would say that it was. An imaginary reasonable person in Sansa's position could have anticipated all the results that flowed from her giving information to Cersei, including the possibility that Ned might be executed for treason. But this isn't a legal case and we don't need to adhere purely to an objective standard. Looking at Sansa's subjective point of view, the fact of her theoretical responsibility for Ned's death under an objective standard looks quite hollow. I don't know what GRRM meant to encompass when he mentions Ned's "downfall", but my own thought is that there is a good argument that the level of responsibility Sansa bears for the more remote event of Ned's death is not equal to the responsibility she bears for the events more immediate to her talking to Cersei.

[nirolo]

About Lyanna and Arya/Sansa.

IIRC, both Arya and Lyanna are said to have a touch of the wolf-blood. This is what leads Ned to making the comparison between Lyanna and Arya.

Sansa couldn't be any further from having the wolf-blood. This is why I just don't see any similarities between Lyanna and Sansa.

[A Crow Come Over]

Yes you have read that, and in the books there are so many parallels between Lyanna`s and Sansa`s stories.

And as KotS siad, Lyanna did cry when she heard Rhaegar singing...

I was heading towards this. I have explored all three Stark ladies for my Animal project, and Lyanna`s story wonderfully parallels both girls...

Except the fact that Lord Rickard had to forbid Lyanna from swordplay and forced her to be a lady. The fact that she cried during a song only shows that she possesses emotion.

There are no instances where Sansa and Lyanna are directly compared, whereas we have dozens of references to Arya being everything short of a clone of Lyanna.

[mrunderhill]

Are we going to that Mycah incident again... She was that naive, and I can`t get how people see her both understanding all the intricacies of the Game and being stupid. Make a choice, for God`s sake. Either she is back-stabbing player, or a pawn. YOu can`t have it both ways.

As for selling out family, she just showed how close she is to Stark roots. Arya maybe got Lyanna`s looks, but Sansa got her heart and soul.

She was not naive here. She knows Arya is going to be punished severely for attacking the prince, but does not care. Sorry I don't see why you can not be both a back-stabber and a pawn. Sansa betrayed Arya so that she could be in favour with the Royal Family. If Arya gets punished quite heavily for being rude to her Septa and refusing to do needle work, what do you think she is going to get for attacking the prince? No treats for months etc.

Selling out your family is something Starks don't do. It's not for nothing she has no direwolf.