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"Targaryens are Fireproof" and Other Common Misconceptions


J. Stargaryen

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As for Margaery, Sansa knew there was a great danger if someone hears what she tells Margaery, not mentioning when she realized that wedding might be cancelled. But she told them the truth. She told QOT and Margaery the truth that no one would ever say to them. In her own way, Sansa did protect Margery by giving her info about Joffrey.

She actually even tells Margaery not to marry Joffrey, that he will hurt her, while they are out riding.

I don't see how a secret marriage would make anything legit, honestly it just sounds like fanfiction made by people who want their favourite character to be more than a bastard.

Please, be so kind and do not ascribe motives to people whom you know nothing about. The theory was built on analysing pieces of evidence and what they meant, not on some blind fanboyism. You will find links to a comprehensive analysis on the first page of the pinned R+L thread.

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True. But there is a reasonable doubt Lyanna was never abducted. So, if you argue that Sansa`s telling to Cersei Ned`s plans led to his death, Lyanna running away led to deaths of her brother and father.

Not quite. The fact is Sansa fought with what she had, and Lyanna too. Sansa fought with lies, Lyanna with spear. As I said already, acts are different, but their essence is the same.

No. Sansa does not "fight".

She does not go herself, on her own, to tell Margaery about Joff. It has to be dragged out of her, reluctantly, and then she flips out at the idea the wedding will be called off. She gets points for telling the truth, but you are seriously exaggerating both how important it is [not like the Tyrells couldnt' find out she was stripped and beaten before the entire court] or how much bravery is involved here.

It's true she speaks for Dontos, but she does it before she even realizes what she has said, and its only the Hound who saves her by backing up her statement. She gets credit for her compassion and for saying something before she could stop herself.

But, again, it is not comparable with going out of her way to the point of beating up three men on behalf of a complete stranger because he was your father's bannerman and then demanding he be seated at your table. This is a level of agency and action that Sansa Stark has shown only one time....when she went on her own to Cersei to rat out her father's plans because she was too stupid to see the queen or Joff for what they were, despite the fact that they had her wolf killed. Everything else that has happened to her since that time has been the result of someone else's action to move her along.

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True. But there is a reasonable doubt Lyanna was never abducted. So, if you argue that Sansa`s telling to Cersei Ned`s plans led to his death, Lyanna running away led to deaths of her brother and father.

No. Don't be too defensive. I don't think anyone puts all the blame on Sansa.

What we are arguing here is the degree of similarity between Lyanna and Sansa.

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What is this shared uniqueness between Lyanna and Sansa? If it's kindness then I would argue that is not so unique as you believe, and it certainly is not enough to judge two characters as alike. There are different ways to be kind, and I just don't think Sansa and Lyanna displayed their kindness in the same way. This is why I don't see the two as like.

Not to mention when people think of Sansa, they usually think of duty and passivity -- a pawn.

Lyanna on the other hand is very much active -- taking things into her own hands.

There are few more things, but I can`t discuss without elaborating them, and I am not up to that right now. I`ll do it in my essay about Stark ladies in my Animal project, so I`ll PM you then.

Sansa is passive, and Lyanna was active. What was Lyanna active about? Since you argued before that we don`t know if she escaped with Rhaegar, then tell me where she showed she was so pro-active. I mean, she did fight for Howland but even that is dubious since it`s not confirmed. But, for the sake of argument, let we say she was KotLT, and she did fight for Howland. Beside that, where did she show she was so active? And I mean, as a person quality, not as a rider or sword-fighter. Explain me, if we dismiss the running away with Rhaegar, when she was so active about herself that makes her completely different from Sansa.

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No. Sansa does not "fight".

She does not go herself, on her own, to tell Margaery about Joff. It has to be dragged out of her, reluctantly, and then she flips out at the idea the wedding will be called off. She gets points for telling the truth, but you are seriously exaggerating both how important it is [not like the Tyrells couldnt' find out she was stripped and beaten before the entire court] or how much bravery is involved here.

It's true she speaks for Dontos, but she does it before she even realizes what she has said, and its only the Hound who saves her by backing up her statement. She gets credit for her compassion and for saying something before she could stop herself.

But, again, it is not comparable with going out of her way to the point of beating up three men on behalf of a complete stranger because he was your father's bannerman and then demanding he be seated at your table. This is a level of agency and action that Sansa Stark has shown only one time....when she went on her own to Cersei to rat out her father's plans because she was too stupid to see the queen or Joff for what they were, despite the fact that they had her wolf killed. Everything else that has happened to her since that time has been the result of someone else's action to move her along.

She fights. Not with swords, but with what she has - with her words.

Remember how she responded to Joffrey when he made her watch her father`s head, or in the night of Blackwater battle. How she renounced to bend the knee to Tyrion. And that`s maximum she could have done. Other way, she would be beaten as many times before. Isn`t the greatest battle all of us have with our own fears. And just imagine Sansa`s fear while she was meeting with Dontos. She was proactive about escaping, and she did fightin her own way, without getting beaten time after time. What Lyanna doid for Howland is the same what Sansa did for Dontos. Lyanna just saved Howland from humiliation, but Sansa saved Dontos`s life.

She actually even tells Margaery not to marry Joffrey, that he will hurt her, while they are out riding.

I have completely forgotten about that. Thanks for reminder.

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There are few more things, but I can`t discuss without elaborating them, and I am not up to that right now. I`ll do it in my essay about Stark ladies in my Animal project, so I`ll PM you then.

Sansa is passive, and Lyanna was active. What was Lyanna active about? Since you argued before that we don`t know if she escaped with Rhaegar, then tell me where she showed she was so pro-active. I mean, she did fight for Howland but even that is dubious since it`s not confirmed. But, for the sake of argument, let we say she was KotLT, and she did fight for Howland. Beside that, where did she show she was so active? And I mean, as a person quality, not as a rider or sword-fighter. Explain me, if we dismiss the running away with Rhaegar, when she was so active about herself that makes her completely different from Sansa.

Arianne I in TWoW pretty much confirmed it, although undirectly.

Elia Sand the Lady Lance alias the girl jouster

George took pains to show us that in his world it is possible for a teenage girl do what tKoLT did.

But I've thought that there was concensus in fPtP that Sansa is like Ned.

Ned was not like Lyanna.

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There are few more things, but I can`t discuss without elaborating them, and I am not up to that right now. I`ll do it in my essay about Stark ladies in my Animal project, so I`ll PM you then.

Sansa is passive, and Lyanna was active. What was Lyanna active about? Since you argued before that we don`t know if she escaped with Rhaegar, then tell me where she showed she was so pro-active. I mean, she did fight for Howland but even that is dubious since it`s not confirmed. But, for the sake of argument, let we say she was KotLT, and she did fight for Howland. Beside that, where did she show she was so active? And I mean, as a person quality, not as a rider or sword-fighter. Explain me, if we dismiss the running away with Rhaegar, when she was so active about herself that makes her completely different from Sansa.

First of all, all of our judgements about Lyanna comes from these two instances. Once you dismiss them, then I don't have any text to go by. So I don't think you can just throw them away like that and then ask me to show where else Lyanna was active in what she did.

The fact that these two instances define Lyanna and are the only instances we know about her should be enough to show that she is different from Sansa.

There is also this quote that separates Lyanna from Sansa:

Quote 1:

You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.

Not to mention Lyanna loved sword fighting, and you have to ask yourself, what kind of girl likes that? Especially in a medieval society.

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Ned explicitly thinks that Lyanna's wolf blood was the reason for her demise. In other words, she was wild and impulsive. Those are probably two of the last words I would use to describe Sansa. Yes, I see Sansa growing into a strong, smart, assertive person as the books go along, but I don't see the connection to Lyanna.

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Sansa is who she is, a nice, dutiful girl, without a very firm grip on the real world, who has good values but who has been in over her head since leaving Winterfell.

She is nothing like Lyanna, who is described again and again as willful, wild, having too much of the 'wolf blood' and who again and again is described as doing things that are far out of the ordinary for a woman of her station--sword fighting, beating up men, riding better than a man, she bucks the system over and over, with the penultimate bucking of the system being when she leaves with Rhaegar. She also seems to be quite a bit more perceptive than Sansa, since she had Robert Baratheon's number long before anyone else did.

But, we can agree to disagree. You are on stronger, though not much stronger, when you argue that Sansa is somewhat similar to Ned--quiet, dutiful,.

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SNIP

I know they come from those two instances, but you dismissed one of them. Lyanna was a wolf child, and as Ned said she was iron, but Tyrion also noticed Sansa is cold as the Wall. Lyanna was impulsive, but how would you call Sansa`s reaction to Dontos, or her going to Cersei. It wasn`t well thought, she just did that.

But I've thought that there was concensus in fPtP that Sansa is like Ned.

Ned was not like Lyanna.

But, we can agree to disagree. You are on stronger, though not much stronger, when you argue that Sansa is somewhat similar to Ned--quiet, dutiful,.

If I have to choose between Lyanna and Ned, and which one of them Sansa is more alike, that would certainly be Ned. But there are moments where we see some portion of wilderness in Sansa. It`s not overwhelming like in Lyanna and Arya, but it is there. From time to time, Sansa reminds us that she is a wolf too, and that there is a drop, only a drop of that wolf-blood in her. Just like there was only a drop of wolf-blood in Ned.

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I know they come from those two instances, but you dismissed one of them. Lyanna was a wolf child, and as Ned said she was iron, but Tyrion also noticed Sansa is cold as the Wall. Lyanna was impulsive, but how would you call Sansa`s reaction to Dontos, or her going to Cersei. It wasn`t well thought, she just did that.

Being cold is not the same as being stubborn, which is what I believe the iron metaphor is used to describe.

Also, Sansa is not defined by the instance where she blurted out "You can't" to Joffrey. Lyanna on the other hand is defined by her touch of wolf-blood.

These two persons are very different.

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I think it's a pretty big stretch to compare Lyanna to Sansa. Sansa is a subtle, where what little descriptions we have of Lyanna, she is very in your face. Think about dumping wine on Benjen's head when he teased her for crying. Sansa would never do that, it's not her style. Subtlety and words suit her better than action.

It's with words Sansa has harmed people, harmed herself and protected herself.

Just because she acted impulsively a few times doesn't make her Lyanna. At this point, with what little we know about Lyanna, it is a monstrous stretch to compare the two.

If being impulsive is the standard, why not compare Brandon and Sansa?

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I have gathered a few quotes on Lyanna:

Quote 1:

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

Can you say that Sansa has a wildness in her? Lyanna certainly had, and so does Arya.

Quote 2:

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes.

Could you ever imagine Sansa carrying a sword? I don't think so.

Quote 3:

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.”

Sansa is a tough girl. But I don't think that is the same as having iron underneath her.

Quote 4:

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

This passage clearly shows that Lyanna has a very mature/ realistic notion of what love is. I just can't say the same about Sansa in the early books.

Quote 5:

Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. “You ride like a northman, milady,” Harwin said when he’d drawn them to a halt. “Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember.”

Is Sansa known for her prowess on a horse? I certainly can't recall it being mentioned about Sansa.

Quote 6:

“Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four. “That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king’s feast, and went up to the great castle.

Can you expect Sansa to pick up a sword and duel it out against 3 squires herself? I doubt it.

Can you expect Sansa to insist on inviting someone below her to dine with her at the same table? Remember, Sansa is the only Stark children who always distinguishes Jon as "half-brother".

Can you ever say Sansa is not easy to refuse? You can say the same about Arya, but probably not Sansa.

Quote 7:

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.

Can you ever imagine Sansa pouring wine over Bran or Rickon's head? I doubt it.

Quote 8:

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled

Sansa is certainly pretty, but has anyone ever said that she is a wild beauty?

None of these quotes shows any similarity between Lyanna and Sansa. The two girls are just not very similar.

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Good thread.

One thought. I would soften this one:

Rhaegar disappearing with Lyanna started the war known as Robert's Rebellion. This was not the beginning of the rebellion but, in fact, the prologue. A minor distinction to some, but also an important one. The Cliffsnotes version:

  1. R+L
  2. Arrest and detention of Brandon Stark, et al.
  3. Summoning to King's Landing of Rickard Stark, et al.
  4. Executions without trial of Rickard and Brandon Stark, et al.
  5. Aerys II orders Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark.
  6. Jon Arryn refuses. Instead, He, Robert and Ned raised their respective banners in revolt, and thus began Robert's Rebellion; aka The War of the Usurper.

I would not say it is a "misconception." Rather, it is a theory that is debatable. For example, here is what the app says:

During Robert's Rebellion, the Martells are slow to provide any assistance to the Targaryens due to Rhaegar's callous treatment of his wife, Princess Elia; his abduction of Lyanna Stark just after Elia had delivered their second child is the chief cause of the war.

Now, I am not saying the app is necessarily correct about this. I am saying that it was written by some thoughtful people (who apparently had some privileged access to GRRM). So the idea that the abduction of Lyanna started the Rebellion may be correct or it may not, but it is not an unreasonable way to read these events.

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Good thread.

One thought. I would soften this one:

I would not say it is a "misconception." Rather, it is a theory that is debatable. For example, here is what the app says:

Now, I am not saying the app is necessarily correct about this. I am saying that it was written by some thoughtful people (who apparently had some privileged access to GRRM). So the idea that the abduction of Lyanna started the Rebellion may be correct or it may not, but it is not an unreasonable way to read these events.

The misconception I'm referring to deals with the sequence of events; namely, people leaving out everything in between the "kidnapping" and raising of banners by Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert. So, there's no contradiction because I'm talking about the start of the war, not its cause. However, if that's not clear, maybe I need to reword it anyway.

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Yes, Arya's lack of interest in romance is used to discredit similarities b/w Arya and Lyanna before and when this argument was first brought up that Sansa is the one like her Arya's lack of interest was used to say she is more like Catelyn.

I don't think one difference negates everything else. It's true that a big portion of Lyanna's story revolves around love but a big portion of Catelyn's revolves around being a mother.

There's no immaculate conception in this series so Arya does not seem to be on track to emulating the defining aspect of Catelyn but that doesn't mean they don't have similarities just like it doesn't mean Arya and Lyanna aren't meant to be parallels.

Catelyn is more realistic but she said that when she was young she pretended to be Jenny and LF was the Prince of Dragonflies.

“ She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve.

Arya would not do this. Catelyn also liked Brandon and was interested in her husband to be. She also had a healthy desire for Ned and wanted to give him another child. Arya is not more like Catelyn for having a lack of interest. Of course it is true that this is a difference to Lyanna.

I noticed that Egg (Aegon V) seems to be clearly modeled after Arya. SPOILER- One of the similarities in The Mystery Knight:

“…the orphan girls had made a game of rubbing Egg’s shaven head for luck. It made the boy blush redder than a pomegranate. “Girls are so stupid ,” he would say. “The next one who touches me is going into the river.” Dunk had to tell him, “Then I’ll be touching you. I’ll give you such a clout in the ear you’ll be hearing bells for a moon’s turn.” That only goaded the boy to further insolence. “Better bells than stupid girls ,” he insisted, but he never threw anyone into the river.”

It's very similar to Arya.

“A stupid bullheaded bastard boy, that’s all he is. He could ring all the bells he wanted, it was nothing to her. “

Egg would later change his mind and marry for love and allow his son to do so. That could indicate that Arya would have changed or maybe it

isn't an indicator of anything and Arya is meant to be unlike other characters and asexual.

Anyways, I don't see Sansa being close to Howland in the first place because she said that Arya looked like some ignorant bog woman which is a reference to the crannogs.

Lyanna's first reaction was violent and impulsive. She beat up the squires. That's like Arya when Joffrey was bullying Mycah. Sansa actually hated Arya's violent reaction.

Crying at the song is more like Sansa but Arya is more likely to pour the drink on Benjen.

Sansa cares about knights but she would not pretend to be the KOTLT nor could she as she lacks talent in riding. It's more up Arya's alley.

As for Rhaegar I don't actually see either doing that. Rhaegar was married with a wife and kids already. If Sansa is so like Ned then honor would matter to her and she would see this as dishonorable.

Arya would not stand for her husband to have another wife. I can already tell based on some of the things she said.

On the wolf's blood yes. This was said of Arya, Brandon, and Lyanna. One can argue that Sansa has had moments but it is not a defining trait for her like those 3. Arya in her actions is also very similar to Brandon.

Anyway, I wonder why people make it a contest which Stark sister resembles Lyanna more; as far as I am concerned, she was not a perfect idol. There's nothing wrong with not being like Lyanna.

On some level this is true because Ned was warning Arya not to be like Lyanna. Lyanna played summer games and thus died.

Ned said put family first. He is one who does that. We don't know Lyanna's mindset. Maybe she put Rhaegar first and paid for it but in the end she asks for atonement to be buried with her family.

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