Jaime's redemption

[oneeye]

I was recently watching the re-runs of the final season of deep space nine, where a cardassian named Damar goes from villain to hero, and found myself cheering him on.

Made me think of Jaime and how powerful his redemption has been.

Do you believe in it? Do you think it was caused by his long incarceration? His love for Brienne? his realization Cersei is not all he had thought?

This topic has probably been covered before, but I was thinking of the angle of redemption itself and how cool it is in stories/movies.

[roeh61]

A good woman (Brienne) can have a good influence on a man.

Damar's redemption was NOWHERE near as honorable as Jamie's! Damar left primarily because of the Breen dealings.

[Wolf Girl]

I was recently watching the re-runs of the final season of deep space nine, where a cardassian named Damar goes from villain to hero, and found myself cheering him on.

Ahh! Spoilers! I'm watching the show for the first time and am on Season 6.

Made me think of Jaime and how powerful his redemption has been.

Do you believe in it? Do you think it was caused by his long incarceration? His love for Brienne? his realization Cersei is not all he had thought?

No. No. No. No.

I attribute his change to losing his hand and nothing else. And I'm not totally buying the change, or at least I'm not willing to forgive him, since I don't believe he had mitigating circumstances to excuse the way he was originally. If I ever have something good to say about Jaime Lannister it will be said very, very grudgingly.

[Courtland]

I was recently watching the re-runs of the final season of deep space nine, where a cardassian named Damar goes from villain to hero, and found myself cheering him on.

Made me think of Jaime and how powerful his redemption has been.

Do you believe in it? Do you think it was caused by his long incarceration? His love for Brienne? his realization Cersei is not all he had thought?

This topic has probably been covered before, but I was thinking of the angle of redemption itself and how cool it is in stories/movies.

I think that loosing his hand had a profound effect on his self image. I have always suspected that Cersei more than anything else was the cause of the downfall of his "Honor". As for killing Aerys I honestly think that Jamie felt it was the Right thing to do at the time, even if it id involve Oath-breaking. At the same time we wanted to be honorable and keep at least some of his oath by not revealing Aerys plans. He talked ironically about it later the Brienne, but It still rang true: like maybee once he believed it.

If nothing else Jamie has been rather rudely FORCED to reflect on who he is versus who he always wanted to be (Arthur Dayne versus the smiling KNight). Call it an early Westerosi mid-life crisis.

One things for sure: the Honeymoon with Cersei is SOOOOO over.

my $.10

[oxmix]

After I watch someone throw a small child out a window, I'm not likely to warm to him.

The world would be a better place without the Kingslayer. The wolves should have killed him when they had the chance.

[Stonehelm]

I think that loosing his hand had a profound effect on his self image. I have always suspected that Cersei more than anything else was the cause of the downfall of his "Honor". As for killing Aerys I honestly think that Jamie felt it was the Right thing to do at the time, even if it id involve Oath-breaking. At the same time we wanted to be honorable and keep at least some of his oath by not revealing Aerys plans. He talked ironically about it later the Brienne, but It still rang true: like maybee once he believed it.

If nothing else Jamie has been rather rudely FORCED to reflect on who he is versus who he always wanted to be (Arthur Dayne versus the smiling KNight). Call it an early Westerosi mid-life crisis.

One things for sure: the Honeymoon with Cersei is SOOOOO over.

my $.10

Thats more or less exactly how I saw it. With the loss of his hand and the time he spent away from Cersei and the time he spent Brienne....he was forced into thinking in a new light.

I like the description: "Call it an early Westerosi mid-life crisis"

Thought I would throw my $.10 in with yours

[Jaime L]

If I ever have something good to say about Jaime Lannister it will be said very, very grudgingly.

Gosh, no matter how many times I hear that, it still hurts. :/

Seeing as how I have always felt that Jaime has had only one truly indefensible act (throwing Bran from the window), I don't see the road to redemption as such a stretch for the sister-fucker. Before he was simply amoral rather than immoral (though I think even that is a self-defense mechanism); now he's gained some sensitivity and is at least trying to do the right thing. Did it take losing a hand to set him on his current course? Quite possibly, but it doesn't take away from the efforts he's making to become a better man.

And even before he lost his hand, he was thinking at one point how it would amuse him to return Catelyn's daughters just to do what no-one expected he would. I think that's how he justifies it; and it's emblematic of how he hides under a shallow, smirking veneer but if pressed I think he was willing to do it, because he is legitimately hurt by all the whispered statements of him having "Shit for honor."

[morgoth]

[cybroleach]

At the seige of Riverrun he showed his true colours, he hasn't changed at all his just using his head now instead of his hand. Thus i don't see him being redeemed at all and hope he get his much deserved terrible ending.

[morgoth]

At the seige of Riverrun he showed his true colours, he hasn't changed at all his just using his head now instead of his hand. Thus i don't see him being redeemed at all and hope he get his much deserved terrible ending.

I could agree and disagree. He was ordered to take Riverrun. So, he took it and did it without bloodshed. The Tyrells cannot say the same about Dragonstone.

[oneeye]

sorry about the spoiler wolf girl, I think you'll like the last two seasons.

And I love redemption arcs. In real life I trust them less, in books more.

I think Jaime will die with honor.

[Adam]

At the seige of Riverrun he showed his true colours, he hasn't changed at all his just using his head now instead of his hand.

I viewed that more as him playing off of his reputation than anything else. Of course, if it didn't work, he'd have to keep his word (as the theme of that particular chapter made clear). Even so, it was a gamble with better than good odds. What else would people expect of someone they view to be a monster? Few would call that bluff, as it was something he was completely able to do (as compared to dueling the Blackfish, say).

With regards to the original question posed, that is, "Is the redemption real?", I simply don't think it's that easy. The redemption might be real in that he is changing (slowly), and yet that does not necessarily hinder him from still doing awful things. He's in progress of redemption, if anything - he's certainly not completely redeemed. If that were to ever happen, I'd bet it'd be in his death and recognized by few to none.

[Lukas S]

Jaime is in many ways a better man now than he was before. I will not consider him fully redeemed until he in some ways repays the Starks for pushing Bran out of the window -- for example by getting Sansa somewhere better and safer than her present position. As for the siege of Riverrun -- honestly, it's a war, and we can't expect everyone to suddenly become friends. The Tullys knew what they risked when they entered the game of thrones, and they lost. If the Starks would have won, the same thing would have happened to Casterly Rock, possibly with more bloodshed. Having Jaime suddenly leaving his mission behind him and deciding to let the Tullys be would be highly unrealistic.

[Bog_Devil_of_Crannog]

At the seige of Riverrun he showed his true colours, he hasn't changed at all his just using his head now instead of his hand. Thus i don't see him being redeemed at all and hope he get his much deserved terrible ending.

I totally agree.

He did show his true colors, but we disagree in the how.

The man made some necessary threats to ensure he held his oath to Lady Catelyn not to take up arms against Tully or Stark.

That's a big step for Jaime on his road to redemption. He stayed focused on not just what he'd been told to do, but also to what he had sworn to do.

We have plenty of evidence that he's sincere about his change through the text.

So yeah, I buy it.

And I literally cheered for the guy when he put Cersei's letter in the hearth.

[morgoth]

And I literally cheered for the guy when he put Cersei's letter in the hearth.

I did too.

[roeh61]

After I watch someone throw a small child out a window, I'm not likely to warm to him.

The world would be a better place without the Kingslayer. The wolves should have killed him when they had the chance.

the incest before that makes him hard to warm up to

Ahh! Spoilers! I'm watching the show for the first time and am on Season 6.

No. No. No. No.

Oh, you're in for a treat, season 6 and 7 are by far the best of DS9

[DJ Dawn]

To tell you the truth, reading JaimeLannisters post have probably done as much to convince me of the Kingslayers redemption as anything in the books. Can he really be a bad guy with the Alexis Bledel avatar? Can he? I think not.

[roeh61]

Thats more or less exactly how I saw it. With the loss of his hand and the time he spent away from Cersei and the time he spent Brienne....he was forced into thinking in a new light.

I like the description: "Call it an early Westerosi mid-life crisis"

Thought I would throw my $.10 in with yours

First, let's look at how much he has changed. Since his time with Brienne and losing his hand he has saved Brienne, largely stopped seeing Cercei, helped Brienne with her quest to save Sansa, kept his vow regarding taking up arms against Starks and Tullys (though that was largely by manipulating Edmure)...anything else?

Second, are these the sort of the sort of things he'd have done before meeting Brienne and losing his hand? It's hard to say. He probably would not have left Cercei.

[Stonehelm]

I believe he has become a better person than he was before and will give him credit for it. But just because I have a few nice things to say about him....he still has not redeemed himself yet. I do think that he will do something major in the upcoming books that will totally redeem him, but thats a long time off. Throwing that letter in the fire was a great start, it was only the first step (or second or third step) in a very long journey.

[morgoth]

I believe he has become a better person than he was before and will give him credit for it. But just because I have a few nice things to say about him....he still has not redeemed himself yet. I do think that he will do something major in the upcoming books that will totally redeem him, but thats a long time off. Throwing that letter in the fire was a great start, it was only the first step (or second or third step) in a very long journey.

I concur.