Jaime's redemption

[DJ Dawn]

This guy beat up his wife and put out ciggarettes on his son and stabbed some random guy in the eye - why ? Because he was frustrated with his life going nowhere, his soul-crushing job and his boss and the whole world coming down on him - and the poor guy is just hotheaded - he may be bastard on the outside, but he is really crying inside and is really sorry for what he did. Now that we understand why he did these things, and have a better understanding of his inner demons, we should just forgive him. Right ?

Most definately not, but should we give him a chance to change if it's what he truly desires?

[Jon Targaryen]

In the context of the story at that time, the people there think that Tommen is Robert's son and not a Lannister bastard. Of course the church blessing makes him look to be the rightful king. Obviously given what we as the reader actually know Tommen has no claim to the Throne, but given the context of the story, the church blessing is a powerful factor pointing to what appears to be Tommen's superior claim (when in fact he has none) over Stannis and Dany. Imagine the flip side if the church didn't bless Tommen, there would be a lot more people believing that he was actually a bastard and possibly supporting Stannis (in a covert way). It does actually make Tommen's rule right in the context of the story. We know that he is actually an illegitimate child but they do not. It is given the legal effect (deemed) to be right even if it is wrong, at the present moment. The blessing could be withdrawn and then people will start thinking...

Legally right now in a Westerosi Ecclestical Court of Law given what they know (not what we know) they would all find that Tommen is the rightful King and legal king.

Ok, we know Tommen has no claim to throne. I don't think it makes Tommen's rule "right." It just strengthens it in the eyes of the commons and the lords.

[Seventh Pup]

Most definately not, but should we give him a chance to change if it's what he truly desires?

No because he's crimes need justice. That is the thing that is lacking from Jaime's character arc, justice for his crimes. Completely disregarding Aery's death. He committed Treason for about 15 years with the queen, attempted to murder a child, and crippled said child, helped to start a war, killed Ned Starks men, decided to act as a member of his family instead of a King's Guard during the war his actions helped start, and lastly is holding on to mere technicalities of his oath that allowed him his freedom.

I do not think a couple months in jail and the loss of a hand is justice for all his crimes.

I think Jaime has an amazing character arc, but true redemption takes true risk. He's risked very little so far for anyone outside his family that he's wronged. Until Jaime is really willing to risk something big, his path to redemption has a permanent roadblock in it.

[nerdlinger]

Most definately not, but should we give him a chance to change if it's what he truly desires?

Sure, but there are two issues with regards to Jamie. First of all, my comment was in response to TRex's contention that Jamie does not need redemption. It seems there are some readers out there who are able to forgive Jamie simply because they have had a glimpse of his inner struggles - and that I don't understand.

Secondly, I am not sure Jamie, regardless of what he says to himself, has done anything to demonstrate that he is changing for the better. He admits to himself that he would have harmed Tullys and Starks if necessary to keep his vows to Tommen. He is again selectively enforcing his vows. And even when he does not take up arms against the Starks, it's only in a technical sense - by interepreting Catelyn's words very literally. The meaning of his vow was that he would not participate in any war or battle againsts the Starks.

Even when trying to keep his vows about Sansa, he sends out Brienne, armed with nothing but a token symbol. No backups, no knights that Jamie could trust (perhaps Marbrand and some additional troops?) nothing at all. If he was truly trying to keep his vows he would have led a force whatever himself to get Sansa somewhere she could be safe.

Jamie's a charismatic, very interesting, even tragic, character. But a good guy he is not and has not done anything to show that he is changing for the better.

edited to add:

and what Seventh Pup said.

[Antonius Pius]

No because he's crimes need justice.

I agree. His frustration about his tarnished name doesn't outweigh the magnitude of his crimes, imo, and his frustrations in life certainly don't entitle him to acquittal. I liked him immediately we got his pov, but his crimes are too black-hearted to excuse on nothing more than frustrations on the course of his own life (note the lack of remorse on Jaime's part!).

[Ser Vlad]

I agree. His frustration about his tarnished name doesn't outweigh the magnitude of his crimes, imo, and his frustrations in life certainly don't entitle him to acquittal. I liked him immediately we got his pov, but his crimes are too black-hearted to excuse on nothing more than frustrations on the course of his own life (note the lack of remorse on Jaime's part!).

That lack of remose is a critical aspect of Jaime's character, because it stems from his blinding arrogance and his inability to accept truly being in the wrong. It's a running theme with Jaime - for example, he does not consider himself dishonoured for killing Aerys, but rather he is angry that the world cannot see the justice that stemmed from his action. The same applies to, say, his position on Cersei. He doesn't care what others may say of the incest, or that he is commiting incest, but rather he is angry at having to hide it.

[DJ Dawn]

What's the consensus on the killing of Aerys? I don't think it can be added to his 'evils'. Certainly tarnishes his honour, but it was the right thing to do.

[Donraj]

I've always thought it odd that throwing Bran out a window seems to be considered worse then slaughtering Ned's entire entourage in front of him just to make a point. The first was, arguably, justified on the grounds that he had to protect himself, his sister and his family from the consequences of having a noble witnesses to their incest and adultery. An accusation from Bran could easily have gotten them both killed and their House in very bad straits, to say nothing of the disgrace it would bring on the family. But if I'm remembering that scene in King's Landing correctly it was basically premediated murder purely to spite Ned for being disrespectful.

As for killing Aerys, it had to be done, and Jaime was the right man to do it. Maybe he could have minced around it to spare his honor, but frankly, I think he should have been hailed as a hero.

[Mr. X]

As for killing Aerys, it had to be done, and Jaime was the right man to do it. Maybe he could have minced around it to spare his honor, but frankly, I think he should have been hailed as a hero.

I agree it was the right thing, but Jaime seems set on keeping his reasons secret and so will never be regarded as a hero. Learning Jaime's reasons for killing Aerys is one of my favorite moments in ASoS. He's still an asshole, but I find myself empathizing with him all the same.

[Ironwill]

I've always thought it odd that throwing Bran out a window seems to be considered worse then slaughtering Ned's entire entourage in front of him just to make a point. The first was, arguably, justified on the grounds that he had to protect himself, his sister and his family from the consequences of having a noble witnesses to their incest and adultery. An accusation from Bran could easily have gotten them both killed and their House in very bad straits, to say nothing of the disgrace it would bring on the family. But if I'm remembering that scene in King's Landing correctly it was basically premediated murder purely to spite Ned for being disrespectful.

Even Cersi thinks that trying to kill Bran was a stupid move, and really if you have to kill a child to protect your actions then those actions had better be of the noblest quality. Jamie has no moral advantage in killing Bran despite, "The things I do for love." However both actions are deporeable, and it comes down to which you feel is worse a child killer protecting his family, or a murder to make someone suffer?

[Gaollenaer]

This guy beat up his wife and put out ciggarettes on his son and stabbed some random guy in the eye - why ? Because he was frustrated with his life going nowhere, his soul-crushing job and his boss and the whole world coming down on him - and the poor guy is just hotheaded - he may be bastard on the outside, but he is really crying inside and is really sorry for what he did. Now that we understand why he did these things, and have a better understanding of his inner demons, we should just forgive him. Right ?

Jaime was never bad actually.

Over the series we got to see more of him and even WHY he slew Aerys.

I think I'd have done the same.

Except that I would have handled that arrogant basterd Stark who thought to come and judge me like that a little differently.

I would have at least tried to save some of my dignity and reputation, and not acted so flippantly.

[Ironwill]

Jaime was never bad actually.

!?Que?!

That was a joke right?

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

I am not a fan of Jaime and redeeming a soul is high gravity subject.

If we look at its another way, redemption is paying one's debts with interest if possible. As far as I can see the following are bad things Jaime did for sure among others

1) Threw Bran out the window to save his and Cersei's skins.(major)

2) Killed Ned's men in KL for no reason but vanity.(severe)

3) Going to seize Riverrun-breaking oaths.(medium)

He did these good thing for sure (may be others)

1) Went back to save Brienne.

What time can he do to pay for this or what good can he do that would balance the books. In westoros taking black would probably clear the account. But I guess if he "sacrifices" his life for some greater good may we can call him 'redeemed'.

All his good 'thoughts' and 'intentions' couldn't redeem anything in my view.

[DJ Dawn]

3) Going to seize Riverrun-breaking oaths.(medium)

This can't be counted. He would have broken oaths either way. He had conflicting oaths, and arguably went with the more important one to king and family.

[Donraj]

Even Cersi thinks that trying to kill Bran was a stupid move, and really if you have to kill a child to protect your actions then those actions had better be of the noblest quality. Jamie has no moral advantage in killing Bran despite, "The things I do for love." However both actions are deporeable, and it comes down to which you feel is worse a child killer protecting his family, or a murder to make someone suffer?

I'm not going to rate it high on the justified acts scale, but there were at least some valid reasons why he reacted the way he did. It was, at least on some level, self-defense, and it wasn't just his head on the line.

[Seventh Pup]

What's the consensus on the killing of Aerys? I don't think it can be added to his 'evils'. Certainly tarnishes his honour, but it was the right thing to do.

To tell the truth it depends on the mood I'm in as to whether I count it as an "evil" or not. On one hand Aery's was a crazy Mother err Sister Fucker; and deserved to die. Aery's was going to do something terrible and Jaime prevented that. Good for Jaime.

On the other hand he doesn't do it until his father (or at least his father's men) are in city limit's; he never tells anyone about the bombs; nor does he ever try to make amends for his broken oath.

If saving thousands was really his goal in killing Aery's why doesn't he tell anyone about the wild fire? It's like killing someone so the don't poison a water supply and then not doing anything about the poison that's sitting at the edge of the water.

I can't help but think that one of the reason's that Jaime killed Aery's was to save his own skin. He may not fear death in the heat of battle, but I don't think he wanted to die an unremembered and unextraordinary member of a King's Guard for a dead dynasty. More over I can't help thinking he wasn't so much protecting the 10,000 who lived in King's Landing or if he was thinking more about his own family's forces inside the city. (I can't remember now did he know about the wild fire before it was planted around the city?)

Like wise he never sees anything wrong with breaking his oath. Yes he might of been justified but he also broke an exceptionally strong oath. He should have taken the Black; or at the very least doubled his efforts to protect Robert. Instead he takes every hand out his family's position will grant him for crime. He never atones for his broken oath at all.

So I guess I would say I don't have a problem with him killing a manic in power and with the possibility of killing thousands. I do have a problem with his broken oath, and I question his sincerity about why he broke it. I don't think it was the selfless act he would have Brienne think it was.

[DJ Dawn]

I'd give him credit. He was having a serious personal moral battle. His oaths, which at the time I believe he held sacred, told him to keep the King safe no matter what. However, he knew it was morally wrong to let the King's plans come to fruition. I think he finally was able to decide when the time demanded action. He decided to kill the pyromancer and Aerys when they were going to blow up the city. He saved countless lives, and destroyed his idyllic views on knighthood and honour at the same time. I think he cloaked this pain in the arrogance that he displays from this time until the loss of his hand. I feel that Jaime has always been the man he is becoming now, but, just like Sandor, had his whole world destroyed.

[Seventh Pup]

I'd give him credit. He was having a serious personal moral battle. His oaths, which at the time I believe he held sacred, told him to keep the King safe no matter what. However, he knew it was morally wrong to let the King's plans come to fruition. I think he finally was able to decide when the time demanded action. He decided to kill the pyromancer and Aerys when they were going to blow up the city. He saved countless lives, and destroyed his idyllic views on knighthood and honour at the same time. I think he cloaked this pain in the arrogance that he displays from this time until the loss of his hand. I feel that Jaime has always been the man he is becoming now, but, just like Sandor, had his whole world destroyed.

I difference is that Jaime destroyed his own world. I don't think his vows where that sacred to him as he only took the White so that he could be close to Cersei to fuck her. More over if he'd divulged the where about of the wild fire he could have clear a lot of his name. I think he sees himself as way to much of a victim in all of it. And that he got sulky that people could think badly about him for breaking his oath. In a lot of ways he's a victim, but it's mostly to himself. He's always seemed to think of himself above such things, which is why he could make an oath to be celebrant only to get laid more often. Unlike Sandor who had his life forcibly changed by another.

[DJ Dawn]

I think part of the problem is that hes was a 17 year old man that was in love! Cersei was manipulative, but Jaime was honestly in love. His life was perfect, he was rich, had the love of his life, and was honored as one of the greatest knights in the kingdom. You give this much to your average 17 year old and then expect them to make every right move when they are forced to put and end to it. He chose love, family, and morality, over an oath to an obviously immoral king. He didn't just want to fuck Cersei, he loved her. Honestly loved her.

[Jagged]

On the other hand he doesn't do it until his father (or at least his father's men) are in city limit's; he never tells anyone about the bombs; nor does he ever try to make amends for his broken oath.

If saving thousands was really his goal in killing Aery's why doesn't he tell anyone about the wild fire? It's like killing someone so the don't poison a water supply and then not doing anything about the poison that's sitting at the edge of the water.

I can't help but think that one of the reason's that Jaime killed Aery's was to save his own skin. He may not fear death in the heat of battle, but I don't think he wanted to die an unremembered and unextraordinary member of a King's Guard for a dead dynasty. More over I can't help thinking he wasn't so much protecting the 10,000 who lived in King's Landing or if he was thinking more about his own family's forces inside the city. (I can't remember now did he know about the wild fire before it was planted around the city?)

I dont think so. The basis of your reasoning is that he never tells anyone about the wildfire. I would probably have done the exact some thing. I have been in positions in my life were I have been accused of something but didn't speak out to prove I was right simply becuse it wouldn't matter to the person. You see the hate and disdane In their eyes and it's sparks a rage inside you that brings all your foolish pride to the front. If he really just cared about himself he could have left the city right before it burned. He would not be labled a Kingslayer. True He abandoned his king but He could easily show that the king was Insain and not worth his oath.

I difference is that Jaime destroyed his own world. I don't think his vows where that sacred to him as he only took the White so that he could be close to Cersei to fuck her.

I also have to disagree here. He was clearly in awa of such knights as The Sword of the Morning and Barristian the Bold. It is only natural that he would want to follow their footsteps. Being close to his sister was probably the iceing on the cake.