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Faceless Man can't kill people they know?


acermaniac

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That's no real proof. A man can know the name of his father but don't know his father. I hear half the children in that world are bastards.

Firstly, when Arya sails to Braavos, all the sailors keep reminding her of their names, and ask her to remember them. She's shown the captain her iron coin, so they know she's going to receive FM training.

Secondly, the Kindly Man chastises her when she kills Dareon. He tells her they don't kill based on emotion or personal reasons.

Thirdly, Arya is present at a FM meeting, where they are assigning a client. They go around the table, and several FM say "I know this man, I cannot accept this contract", until one says "I do not know this man".

Even though she knows the sailor's names, she doesn't really know them, does she? Yet they make special effort to ensure she knows their names, why?

Obviously he might not of known his father at all, even his name, but if Arya knew it he would die, but then again he just as likely knows his own father (at least enough to know that he is long dead), therefore he likely knows his name.

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He does know that his father is long dead though, which would suggest he knows of him and his fate. Heck maybe he killed him himself before becoming a FM.

Which maybe could suggest that the knowing means personally know. Not Wiki know. Which could mean the guy the FM "council" were discussing about is rather famous.

Even though she knows the sailor's names, she doesn't really know them, does she? Yet they make special effort to ensure she knows their names, why?

We couldn't really vouch for what the sailors know. For all we know it is just an urban legend that they go about and if someone makes the sacrifice those poor sailors are feed for the drowned god.

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Oh we agree on that one. :)

I also think you need to have knowledge of the target, on a personal level in order to be disqualified yourself.

As I understand the rule, Arya would never be able to kill the Hound now, since she's had several interactions with him.

She would however be able to target say Queen Cercei or Jaime, even though she saw them at WF and KL,

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The "rules" we learn about the FM from Arya and the way Jaqen conducts himself contradict one another, more then once. Either Jaqen is not the kind of FM (is there more then 1 kind?) that Arya is training to become or he is special in some way or he just is not an FM.

Also I think the whole "No One" business is simply teaching Arya to lie without being detected.

About your second point: While there is a certainly that aspect, I think it goes deeper than that. The Kindly Old Man told Arya that she had worn many names but lightly, like a gown and that she must "empty" herself in order to successfully play the roles required for her assignments. But apart from that, letting go of past loyalties and life in order to serve a deity or a faith is a common theme in RL religions (we see somthing similar with the septons or the maesters giving up their names).

As far as practical concerns go, this serves the same purpose as the rule not to kill people one knows. To prevent the FM from killing out of personal initiative as well as to avoid conflict of interest and emotional complications. To make them as much as possible, mere intruments of god's will. The sailors saying their names seems like superstition to me more than anything, a superficial knowledge of the FM MO. I don't think a casual acquintance keep them safe from Arya, let alone other FM, while the captain, who provided a service and his son, who kept Arya company, are probably protected. On the other hand, people like Cersei or Jamie are definitely off limits regardless of amount of personal interaction. They are enemies of her family and she has a vested interest in killing them. I don't think they would ever let her near them.

As far as your first point. It is true there are many inconsistencies between the way Jaqen does things and the teachings Arya receives. The simplest explanation is that it is a plot hole. The other explanation is that Jaqen is a rogue, but the fact that he allowed for the possiblity to meet Arya if she travelled to Braavos suggests that whatever Jaqen is or was, still has ties to the Temple. Personally, I think it is because Arya is still a novice being indoctrinated. She hasn't been taught all of the FM beliefs and practises (that they must pay their rescuer with a death) and what she learns as absolute rules are more like guidelines to fully fledged priest, allowing him some leeway in order to perform his mission. Who knows, maybe the Kindly Old Man would disapprove of Pate's murder. Furthermore, Jaqen's mission so far seems like infiltration rather than murder, which hints at other FM activities that Arya would know nothing about being a novice.

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Just like to point out. Even if

Jaqen didn't "know" his father, he did acknowledge he will kill "anyone" which must include someone he knows.

Not to mention, Jaqen clearly would know Jaqen which as we know is a valid person to name.

So at least in this instance, the "no killing people you know" rule was neglected. (But as people pointed out, this may be a "special circumstance")

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FM prefer not to kill those they know. They are not limited by some ironclad rule forbidding it, however. The founder of their order, for example, killed previously known marks. IMO not killing a known mark is simply better practice since all other factors being equal it is simply easier.

As long as they could become "No one" (as in, not let emotions get in the way). Wouldn't knowing a person make it much easier to plan a kill?

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My opinion is that they can accept a job for someone they know if they are able to master the art of deception so completely that the other Faceless Men would believe them when they say, "I do not know this man". It would be like saying that you know you would be able to carry out the mission successfully, and probably in disguise so that they would not recognize you. I developed this belief from reading the interaction between Jaqen and Arya when he tells her that he can kill anyone. I know Arya comes across a few people that make a point of telling Arya that she "knows" them and to remember that, so she cannot kill them, but I do not believe that is a hard rule.

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The No One is I think indeed intended as a depersonalising mode, a known method of brainwashing. When you succeed in serparating someone from his roots, even take his name, you have a very efficient instrument at hand.

The rule about not killing someone you know.

It made my skin crawl.

It is believed when you don't know who you kill this makes it easy. It is said that bomber pilots, who only see the blasts and fires, can separate themselves from the image of the killing and maiming that the bombs they drop cause to human life. ETA They don't see but also don't know who they kill.

So in this sense not knowing your victim could make it easy for a hired assassin.

At the same time It is hard to kill someone you know, but at the same time it can make it easy.

Because if you know the flaws, the faults that your target has, it can make it more acceptable for you to kill him.

Arya in fact is spending quite a few days closely observing who her intended target is, the insurance broker, how he acts.

This is partly to figure out the way of killing him, but she uses it also as a kind of legitimation: she convinces himself that her victim deserves to be killed.

Which in fact can show that she is not yet an accomplished hired assassin, that she needs some psychological license to kill.

edited .. lousy English

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How do they decide who dies and who doesnt? And who can hire the faceless man?

I mean the guy Arya killed, didn't really deserve to die.

Because he took advantage of some sailors and didn't pay up when the sailors died he should die?

Seems like they kill people frivolously.

Anyone can hire the FM. As long as you are willing to pay the price they would kill anyone. And the price isn't gold most of the time.

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How do they decide who dies and who doesnt? And who can hire the faceless man?

I mean the guy Arya killed, didn't really deserve to die.

Because he took advantage of some sailors and didn't pay up when the sailors died he should die?

Seems like they kill people frivolously.

They kill to "answer prayers". So it didn't matter whether the insurance man "deserved" to die or not. I think what matters was someone who really REALLY wanted him dead. (And was willing to pay the price, in this case, probably offering their own life or something since they more than likely wouldn't have much gold)

My opinion is that they can accept a job for someone they know if they are able to master the art of deception so completely that the other Faceless Men would believe them when they say, "I do not know this man". It would be like saying that you know you would be able to carry out the mission successfully, and probably in disguise so that they would not recognize you. I developed this belief from reading the interaction between Jaqen and Arya when he tells her that he can kill anyone. I know Arya comes across a few people that make a point of telling Arya that she "knows" them and to remember that, so she cannot kill them, but I do not believe that is a hard rule.

This is a really interesting theory! I've never thought about this before. It does seem to take "knowing" as a metaphor rather than the literal meaning. So "not knowing" would simply mean I'm willing to take the job.

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To what degree does a Faceless Man must know a person?

For example, Lord Tywin.

Everyone knows him.

Can a man kill Lord Tywin?

Or must a man know him personally to be excused from the assignment?

This may hinge on how you define "know". I've certainly heard of Vladimir Putin, but we are not personally acquainted, which would be the normal American English definition of knowing him.

I get the impression that knowing the victim would be a valid reason for opting out of the contract, probably even that is's customary to refuse, but not a ban as such.

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I don't think it's a plot hole...we know very little about the FM and even less about Jaqen, but even in this we see contradictions between the two. Ie, there is so little to go on that I feel like George made it fuzzy on purpose. I feel like it's some kind of hint and the answer is probably one of those already discussed...maybe he's some sort of rogue, or he's on a fundamentally different mission that allows him to go outside traditional rules, or something else.

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I have a question about the rogue Jaqen theory. (Sorry, I don't have the books handy so I'll have to paraphrase). Before they part Arya asks Jaqen if he will teach her. He says she would have to come with him, "far away, across the narrow sea." She says she can't because she has to get to Winterfell and asks if she will see him again iirc. He then gives her the coin to give to any Braavosi and tells her the phrase. Then when she does use the coin as instructed the ship brings her to Braavos and she ends up at the House of Black and White, right?

So why would a rogue Jaqen give her instructions to get to HQ when she asks if she will see him again?

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Not a rule, but I also find his "3 lives for the Red God" odd and not in keeping with how the Kindly Man teaches Arya (so far).

Do you mean because it's the Red God? That's because he was saved from fire, and since they believe in the Many-Faced God, being saved from fire is taking away three deaths from the MFG's fire aspect, R'hllor.

Or do you mean because just generally the whole "three lives for something" doesn't fit with what we know of the FM? That can be explained by any number of things from some kind of FM loophole to just some personal thing for Jaqen.

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Well that portion is odd for other reasons - Jaqen is presumably in the middle of a mission in Westeros...yet he would have jettisoned the mission if Arya had agreed to head East with him? Or that he would take her with him while he finished the current mission? Seems to imply that at the time of being saved, Jaqen was between missions, and the Oldtown mission arose after this time.

Also, why did Jaqen give Arya *three* deaths for the fire god? If she has saved him from a burning town instead, would he have owed her a 1000 deaths? Considering he had no apparent ties to the other two thugs, I'm not sure how he owes the fire god for them. Unless he is a more rigorous fire worshipper than is typical for FM and this debt has more to do with R'hllor than the FM?

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