What justifies the Ironborn's views of other peoples as 'weak'?

[E-Ro]

They conquered the Riverlands. The Northerners never did this despite being so many more of them.

How do you know this? The riverlands changed hands many times.

[Garlan Marius]

How do you know this? The riverlands changed hands many times.

The First Men (House Mudd) controlled the Riverlands until the Andals came. Then a few Andal houses controlled the Riverlands, then the Storm Kings took it over, then the Ironborn came, and finally Aegon defeated the Hoares and split the Iron Islands/ Riverlands into two regions.

[E-Ro]

The First Men (House Mudd) controlled the Riverlands until the Andals came. Then a few Andal houses controlled the Riverlands, then the Storm Kings took it over, then the Ironborn came, and finally Aegon defeated the Hoares and split the Iron Islands/ Riverlands into two regions.

And then they joined the kingdom in the north under robb. :P

Besides its not like conquering the riverlands is some great feat. The ironborn have no heavy cavalry witch means they will lose every pitched battle,

[Garlan Marius]

And then they joined the kingdom in the north under robb. :P

Besides its not like conquering the riverlands is some great feat. The ironborn have no heavy cavalry witch means they will lose every pitched battle,

Apparently they were able to defeat the most powerful post-Andal invasion kingdom (at that time) and take a chunk of their land. That's a big deal.

[The Frosted King]

They conquered the Riverlands. The Northerners never did this despite being so many more of them.

There was never any point to doing so, as Robb stark learned to his woe.

Taking the riverlands means giving up your chokepoint(Cailin) for a large piece of country that can never be held securely. Its more trouble than its worth.

And i suspect that the Harrenhal king, would eventually split ties with the iron islands, since there's too little to be gained.

[E-Ro]

Apparently they were able to defeat the most powerful post-Andal invasion kingdom (at that time) and take a chunk of their land. That's a big deal.

Since when were the stormlands the most powerful kingdom? The north is bigger, the reach is also the same size of the stormlands even with the riverlands and crownlands(witch they only controlled part of) and the reach has more people, the west has more gold, the vale is more fertile and defensible, the only place the stormlords are more powerful then is dorn and the ironborn. And the ironborn beating them really shows how weak they are. No way the stormlands were ever the most powerful kingdom.

[ServantOnIce]

Come on... EVERYTHING???? Harlaw, 1 ValyrianSteel. Lannister, 0. They have dragon eggs. They can't feasibly grow crops on their island. Yet they survive. They just don't cut it when the whole kingdoms are united ever since Aegon came. That is why hard times are upon them. Before Aegon. Ironborn raids Westerlands. Reach: Screw those Lannister heathens. Leave Westerlands, raid Reach. Lannister: Screw those Tyrells, they didn't help last time.

With Bob around. Lannisters: Help Bob, this Ironmen attack us. Bob: You, you, you, you, you come with me. Lets deal with it. Balon: Dead sons.

R U High Bruh? :ack:

[Garlan Marius]

Since when were the stormlands the most powerful kingdom? The north is bigger, the reach is also the same size of the stormlands even with the riverlands and crownlands(witch they only controlled part of) and the reach has more people, the west has more gold, the vale is more fertile and defensible, the only place the stormlords are more powerful then is dorn and the ironborn. And the ironborn beating them really shows how weak they are. No way the stormlands were ever the most powerful kingdom.

I never said the Stormlands were the most powerful kingdom. I said that the Storm King empire was the most powerful kingdom. When they controlled what is now the Crownlands and Riverlands in addition to the Stormlands, they easily, easily were. All of your ratings are pure speculation.

[E-Ro]

I never said the Stormlands were the most powerful kingdom. I said that the Storm King empire was the most powerful kingdom. When they controlled what is now the Crownlands and Riverlands in addition to the Stormlands, they easily, easily were. All of your ratings are pure speculation.

None of my ratings are speculation, the reach has more people the north is bigger etc what about that is speculation? Furthermore the lack of ironborn heavy cavalry shows how inept they are to be defeated by them. And no, they were not even close to being the strongest kingdom, defeat by ironborn will forever mark them as fools.

[King Aerys the Just]

None of my ratings are speculation, the reach has more people the north is bigger etc what about that is speculation? Furthermore the lack of ironborn heavy cavalry shows how inept they are to be defeated by them. And no, they were not even close to being the strongest kingdom, defeat by ironborn will forever mark them as fools.

Cool circular argument, bro.

The Ironborn defeating the Storm Lords doesn't prove that they used to be powerful, since the Storm Lords were weak because they got beaten by the Ironborn. Hmm.

[E-Ro]

Cool circular argument, bro.

The Ironborn defeating the Storm Lords doesn't prove that they used to be powerful, since the Storm Lords were weak because they got beaten by the Ironborn. Makes sense.

Im glad you liked it, yes both regions are weak.

[Garlan Marius]

None of my ratings are speculation, the reach has more people the north is bigger etc what about that is speculation? Furthermore the lack of ironborn heavy cavalry shows how inept they are to be defeated by them. And no, they were not even close to being the strongest kingdom, defeat by ironborn will forever mark them as fools.

*sigh*

The North can levy probably 24,000 troops (Robb got half of that quick enough; doubling it would be taxing.) The Riverlands can equal this. The Lannisters had 40,000 and Ser Stafford was levying a bit more.

Renly's army was comprised of 100,000. I'd split that as about 30,000 Stormlanders and 70,000 Reachmen. It isn't a great stretch to assume that the soon-to-be Crownlands could levy 20,000 troops themselves, which puts the total army size of the Storm King empire comparable to that of the Reach. Couple this with the huge network of rivers and coastline, (check out a map) and the Storm empire would be very economically powerful, as well.

Also, calling them "incompetent fools" for losing to the Ironborn in a situation where naval superiority would be the deciding factor (the Trident and tributaries) is asinine. The Iron Fleet could hold the Riverlands, and apparently did.

The Storm Kingdom was a very formidable empire, the most powerful in Westeros before Aegon's Landing.

[King Aerys the Just]

Im glad you liked it, yes both regions are weak.

"Are"

Yes, on that I agree. Four hundred plus years ago though? No way.

We don't even know how the Ironborn used to fight then, by the way. They may well have had more horsemen in their armies than they have now, for example, since they would have had means to afford and use them, with all their holdings on mainland Westeros.

[E-Ro]

*sigh*

The North can levy probably 24,000 troops (Robb got half of that quick enough; doubling it would be taxing.) The Riverlands can equal this. The Lannisters had 40,000 and Ser Stafford was levying a bit more.

Renly's army was comprised of 100,000. I'd split that as about 30,000 Stormlanders and 70,000 Reachmen. It isn't a great stretch to assume that the soon-to-be Crownlands could levy 20,000 troops themselves, which puts the total army size of the Storm King empire comparable to that of the Reach. Couple this with the huge network of rivers and coastline, (check out a map) and the Storm empire would be very economically powerful, as well.

Also, calling them "incompetent fools" for losing to the Ironborn in a situation where naval superiority would be the deciding factor (the Trident and tributaries) is asinine. The Iron Fleet could hold the Riverlands, and apparently did.

The Storm Kingdom was a very formidable empire, the most powerful in Westeros before Aegon's Landing.

No, the reach has by far the most people the stormlands riverlands and crownlands dont even come close. The west has tons of gold. Both the west and reach were more powerful then the stormlands riverlands and crownlands combined. Were are these 20,000 crownlands troops when stannis is invading? And I dont see how naval capacity is the deciding factor, tywin destroyed the riverlords with only land based forces, and to take land you have to fight on land.

[E-Ro]

We don't even know how the Ironborn used to fight then, by the way. They may well have had more horsemen in their armies than they have now, for example, since they would have had means to afford and use them, with all their holdings on mainland Westeros.

True, but im going to assume based on the text that they were better on ships then on horseback. They disrespect heavy cavalry nowadays, im geussing they did back then as well.

[998]

It's just an excuse to 'take what is theirs'.

[Lothar Imbel]

Show me someone else who has a volcano for an arm.

Also yeah, the whole 'conquering the Riverlands' thing as well, which would've meant the Ironborn, being one of the least populous of the seven Kingdoms (how do they even have more men than Dorne anyway?) and taking on three whole regions of Westeros at once, presumably with no allies or heavy cavalry. You have to admit, that's fairly impressive?

EDIT: Oops, looks like I'm late to the disucssion.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The greenlanders are made weak by their fear of death.

True Ironborn do not fear death because, as their religion teaches them:

A) they have already "died" at least once

B) What Is Dead May Never Die

C) Dying in battle is the way to their idea of heaven (Valhalla er I mean The Drowned God's Hall) anyway

So if you follow The Old Way, the best case scenario is you take all the good stuff the world has to offer and live like a king, and the worst case scenario is you go to heaven and people write and sing songs about how awesome you were. Living by rules and oaths and the charity of others ("what is given can be taken away") is for suckers like the greenlanders, who in being afraid to die are thus also afraid to live.

[Lothar Imbel]

B) What Is Dead May Never Die

I know this is just an annoying smilie shortcut, but that's still pretty cool.

[Ser_Patreck]

By the time they conquered the Riverlands they controlled most of Weteros occidental coastline. It was hardly just the Iron Islands against the world.

And, not to lessen the Hoares victory but, conquering the Riverlands is relatively easy. Along with the Reach, it's the most vunerable region. The Vale, Dorne, the Stormlands, the West, all have mountain lines defending them from the mainland, and the North has the Neck. Just look at how many Lords the Riverlands have had. Show me someone can maintain the Riverlands, and I'll show you a hero.