Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 The 'gain' that Illyrio gets for giving the valuable eggs to Dany is for the Dothraki to have the means to invade Westeros - that is a pretty valuable gain. Presumably Dany would be dead by then (her assassination being the trigger for the invasion), so she wouldn't be around to stop Drogo from selling them.But again, the Dothraki could get ships any time they want to, eggs or no eggs, so on balance there's no gain there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 But again, the Dothraki could get ships any time they want to, eggs or no eggs, so on balance there's no gain there.Well why then do you think that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerBrandonDayne Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 could the song of ice and fire be the fight between Rhaegars sons? one born to ice Lyanna Stark of the freezing north and the other born to Elia Martell of firey dorne? the winner becomes the prince that was prommised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im no Ser Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 The 'gain' that Illyrio gets for giving the valuable eggs to Dany is for the Dothraki to have the means to invade Westeros - that is a pretty valuable gain. Presumably Dany would be dead by then (her assassination being the trigger for the invasion), so she wouldn't be around to stop Drogo from selling them.The eggs were probably not to purchase ships. The proof of that is when Drogo decides to invade there is no discussion of selling the eggs. Drogo does have an explicit "fundraising" plan - to enslave Lhazareenes and exchange them for ships - that does not appear to include liquidating the eggs.My guess is that at least one of those eggs was intended to be given to Faegon prior to arriving in Westeros, presumably after Dany's expected death. His mere possession of a dragon egg would have served to confirm his identity for most people. If Faegon is Ilyro's son - and I think he is, whether he is a Blackfyre or not - I don't see Ilyrio giving away "proof" of Faegon's legitimacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 The eggs were probably not to purchase ships. The proof of that is when Drogo decides to invade there is no discussion of selling the eggs. Drogo does have an explicit "fundraising" plan - to enslave Lhazareenes and exchange them for ships - that does not appear to include liquidating the eggs.My guess is that at least one of those eggs was intended to be given to Faegon prior to arriving in Westeros, presumably after Dany's expected death. His mere possession of a dragon egg would have served to confirm his identity for most people. If Faegon is Ilyro's son - and I think he is, whether he is a Blackfyre or not - I don't see Ilyrio giving away "proof" of Faegon's legitimacy.Who says that Faegon doesn't have some eggs of his own? Maybe in these chests Illyrio gave them in Dance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Concerning the eggs, Illyrio was/is very wealthy and he saw the eggs as being valuable but of little practical use. Sending Dany/Viserys off with the Dothraki might be a good ploy that would fit in well with Aegon (regardless of Aegon's origins.) Giving them the eggs and sending them off somewhere very conspicuous would get Robert's attention, and he would want to kill them. We know that Varys/Illyrio didn't intend for Robert to die, at least not yet, from the Arya chapter and his conversation with Ned in the Black Cells. With Robert focused on/believing that he had killed the last Targaryens that would enable Illyrio/Varys to make their preparations without any encumberance- no suspicions, no worries about what the GC are doing, etc. and would remove Dany/Viserys from any potential conflict/challenge from the throne. Especially if Aegon is real, but even if he isn't, it wouldn't be ideal for Varys/Illyrio to be seen to be the ones disposing of Dany/Viserys, if they want to claim that Aegon is Aegon, so Robert is the perfect way to get rid of them. Varys supplies the information to Robert about Dany for example (via Jorah.) The only real issue would be whether Illyrio told Viserys not to go with the Dothraki knowing that he wouldn't listen or that it would make him want to go.It's purely speculation but it would explain the eggs- which make it look like Varys/Illyrio are helping them, and make them more obvious targets- and I think it fits in with Varys' usual types of scheming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Who says that Faegon doesn't have some eggs of his own? Maybe in these chests Illyrio gave them in Dance?And Illyrio didn't mention it? So he mentions bringing candy that Young Griff likes but not dragon eggs? And nobody else mentions that they have the dragon eggs for the rest of the book? That's hard to imagine. It would seem that with the birth of Dany's dragons, any additional dragon eggs would take on added significance. If Aegon or somebody in his employ can wake a dragon himself, he doesn't need to wait for Daenerys to come back from Slaver's Bay.Well why then do you think that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs?Honestly, I have no idea. I speculate that V & I motives--or rather, Varys's--are prophetic in nature, but I have no evidence for it. I think it's the big unanswered question of what Varys and Illyrio are up to, post-ADWD. Everything else about their actions makes sense with the 'Aegon' reveal, but not that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 And Illyrio didn't mention it? So he mentions bringing candy that Young Griff likes but not dragon eggs? And nobody else mentions that they have the dragon eggs for the rest of the book? That's hard to imagine. It would seem that with the birth of Dany's dragons, any additional dragon eggs would take on added significance. If Aegon or somebody in his employ can wake a dragon himself, he doesn't need to wait for Daenerys to come back from Slaver's Bay.Illyrio (and Varys) aren't the most open guys. And Tyrion isn't the most trustworthy. Remember, nobody told him who Young Griff, Old Griff or Septa Lemore were or what their purpose is. The two JonCon POVs don't show much either, they focus on the Golden Company and military, not on symbols for the Westerosi population.And trying to birth these eggs, well, 15 generations of Targs didn't accomplish it and it resulted in death and tragedy most of the time. Not something a down to earth guy like JonCon would rest his hopes on. Even if he has them at the time instead of them sitting in Pentos or KL waiting for delivery.Honestly, I have no idea. I speculate that V & I motives--or rather, Varys's--are prophetic in nature, but I have no evidence for it. I think it's the big unanswered question of what Varys and Illyrio are up to, post-ADWD. Everything else about their actions makes sense with the 'Aegon' reveal, but not that.Basically, that's why I'm saying that there have to be some eggs for Faegon. It settles this one single open question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 And trying to birth these eggs, well, 15 generations of Targs didn't accomplish it and it resulted in death and tragedy most of the time. Not something a down to earth guy like JonCon would rest his hopes on. Even if he has them at the time instead of them sitting in Pentos or KL waiting for delivery.You're basically arguing that Aegon and Jon have a dragon egg or three, and nobody even mentions it. It never comes up in any discussion, in any context. Jon Connington doesn't even think about it. Consider this discussion between Connington and Haldon: [Jon Connington:] "...so to win these allies to our cause, we must needs have something to offer them."[Haldon:] "Gold and land are the traditional incentives.""Would that we had either. Promises of land and promises of gold may suffice for some, but Strickland and his men will expect first claim on the choicest fields and castles, those that were taken from their forebears when they fled into exile. No."Now, this would be a perfect time for Jon Connington to think about the dragon eggs, if he had any, because of course selling an egg or two will help with their lack of gold. Even if the only thought he has is, We do have that dragon egg cache, but that we could never sell. But he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Basically, that's why I'm saying that there have to be some eggs for Faegon. It settles this one single open question.Slightly off topic, but every time I read "Faegon," I keep thinking about Oliver Twist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 What really doesn't make sense is whether Viserys/Dany were pawns or not, he gave her THREE EGGS. I mean if they've had Aegon waiting in the wings this whole time wouldn't it make sense to save one of the three for him? They are not priceless, but obviously expensive and rare. Why waste the whole cache on Dany? This may add fuel to the above post that Varys is possibly prophetic. It just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 You're basically arguing that Aegon and Jon have a dragon egg or three, and nobody even mentions it. It never comes up in any discussion, in any context. Jon Connington doesn't even think about it. Consider this discussion between Connington and Haldon:Now, this would be a perfect time for Jon Connington to think about the dragon eggs, if he had any, because of course selling an egg or two will help with their lack of gold. Even if the only thought he has is, We do have that dragon egg cache, but that we could never sell. But he doesn't.No, I'm arguing that Varys and Illyrio have some dragon eggs left for Faegon. JonCon doesn't currently need to have them or knows about them. Remember, he attacked Westeros on his own against Illyrios plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 No, I'm arguing that Varys and Illyrio have some dragon eggs left for Faegon.Oh, okay. So Varys and Illyrio trusted Daenerys and Drogo with their dragon eggs but didn't extend that same trust to the purportedly rightful king, Aegon, and the former Hand of the King. Curious.In any case, I don't think this theory clears things up as much as you want it to. Even if Daenerys and Aegon were both given dragon eggs, that's still odd. Daenerys was neglected for years, while Aegon was trained and nutured in secret to rule since he was a small child. It makes sense that Illyrio would break the bank w/r/t Aegon, but extending the same courtesy to Daenerys, the toss-off who serves at best a tertiary role in their scheme, the frail child that Illyrio expected to die in the Dothraki sea... that's truly strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Oh Varys and Ilyrio... you mysterious bastards. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pendragon Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Oh, okay. So Varys and Illyrio trusted Daenerys and Drogo with their dragon eggs but didn't extend that same trust to the purportedly rightful king, Aegon, and the former Hand of the King. Curious.In any case, I don't think this theory clears things up as much as you want it to. Even if Daenerys and Aegon were both given dragon eggs, that's still odd. Daenerys was neglected for years, while Aegon was trained and nutured in secret to rule since he was a small child. It makes sense that Illyrio would break the bank w/r/t Aegon, but extending the same courtesy to Daenerys, the toss-off who serves at best a tertiary role in their scheme, the frail child that Illyrio expected to die in the Dothraki sea... that's truly strange.If I recall correctly, the dragon eggs were stone before Dany's ritual in fire. Is it you guys' belief that Varys/Illyrio knew there was a chance they might actually hatch into dragons, ever?It was my reading that, prior to Dany actually hatching them, the dragon eggs were considered inert and merely very rare curiosities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 If I recall correctly, the dragon eggs were stone before Dany's ritual in fire. Is it you guys' belief that Varys/Illyrio knew there was a chance they might actually hatch into dragons, ever?It was my reading that, prior to Dany actually hatching them, the dragon eggs were considered inert and merely very rare curiosities.I think you are exactly right. I think Varys, Illyrio, and the rest of the world felt the dragon eggs to be nothing more than symbols of the once-great Targaryens. Then they actually hatched and that was a real "gamechanger". Up until that time Dany's "value" to them was only due to her name and, perhaps, what Varys and Illyrio could get by marrying her off to someone. And that's exactly what they did. They married the "exotic", exiled Westerosi princess off to, hopefully, secure a Dothraki army they could use to help put Faegon Blackfyre (I subscribe to the theory that Illyrio is his father and his mother, Sera, was a Blackfyre descendant) on the throne. I believe, at that time, they were always planning on getting rid of or setting aside Viserys (i.e. they could plainly see that the coin came up "madness" in his case ;) ) for Faegon.But, then the dragon eggs actually hatched and changed everything, in my opinion. I think that's the significance of the, imo, trying-much-too-hard speech Varys gave to the dying Kevan Lannister. I think that speech wasn't meant for Kevan. I think it was meant for Illyrio via the Little Birds who were also present at Kevan's assassination. You see, I feel we are seeing the beginnings of a parting of the ways between Varys and Illyrio (only Varys doesn't want Illyrio to know it yet) where Varys is going full-on Team Targaryen with Dany while Illyrio will remain Team Faegon Blackfyre for the obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPS63 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Slightly off-topic, but I'd love to see the TV series continue long enough to cover the Epiilogue scene between Varys and Kevan. It's the one scene where we actualy get to SEE Varys back up his ruthless scheming with outright, cold-blooded murder. I would simply love to see what an actor like Conleth Hill could do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Honestly, I have no idea. I speculate that V & I motives--or rather, Varys's--are prophetic in nature, but I have no evidence for it. I think it's the big unanswered question of what Varys and Illyrio are up to, post-ADWD. Everything else about their actions makes sense with the 'Aegon' reveal, but not that.When Dany is being prepared to meet Drogo for the first time, Illyrio is very careful to highlight her pedigree as a Targaryen princess. She is dressed in "a deep plum silk to bring out the violet in her eyes," adorned with gold bracelets encrusted with amethysts and a "heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs." She's even topped with a Disney-princess tiara, for cripes sake! Later, when they are in the coach en route to Drogo's manse, Illyrio remarks: "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes ... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt ... and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo."My sense from the above is that Illyrio seems very keen to make sure that Drogo knows he's getting a bona fide dragon princess. It could be just to bolster her value in the khal's eyes, but what if it's more than that? Could it be that Khal Drogo was operating under a prophecy of his own? Some foretelling that called for a dragon princess to mate with a horse lord to produce the Khal of Khals? Illyrio may have given Dany the dragon eggs as final proof that Drogo was getting what he paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pendragon Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Illyrio may have given Dany the dragon eggs as final proof that Drogo was getting what he paid for.That sounds plausible. My main point was that some folks seem to be basing their theories around the idea that the dragon eggs were potential dragons early on (i.e. why didn't so-and-so keep them for Aegon, etc.) but pretty much right up to the point where they hatch, there's really zero belief they might do so. So there's little compelling reason for Varys/Illyrio not to use them to any given purpose. Their value at that point was entirely symbolic. And while yes, that symbolism, one could argue, could be valuable to Aegon later on, it's not unreasonable for them to decide that the symbolism could better serve their long-term plans by being used earlier to secure something vital. Like a Dothraki horde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Illyrio may have given Dany the dragon eggs as final proof that Drogo was getting what he paid for.While it would be a curiously expensive proof, I can buy that. But what I don't understand is why he would give her all three - surely a dragon egg is as good as 3 as confirmation of her Targness, while Aegon could have gotten one of the other ones to back up his Targness (which is more questionable than Dany's). So either they have even more dragon eggs lying in reserve for Aegon (or already sent to him), or there must have been a specific reason for why they gave her only to Dany. And yet it is generally assumed that they were taken quite by surprise by Dany actually hatching the eggs and indeed a plan relying on magic would have been quite out of character for Varys... I'm honestly not sure what to think about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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