E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wiki. Of course!I should've guessed.I dont understand, whats your point? Is the wiki wrong? LOL your argument is so weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 There are several variations of the Salic Law: In Spain the daughters of the king come after the sons in the sucession line, but before any other relative, male or female. Isabel de Borbón reigned as Isabel II of Spain from 1833 to 1868; her uncle Carlos tried to take the throne from her, but he was defeated.In Japan there is a stricter Salic Law: A woman can't ever be empress of Japan. It wasn't always this way, and there were several female rulers in the past, but at some point a law was passed that no woman could inherit the throne again (the last empress died the year 770).I think the Targayren version is that a Targayren woman can't reign as long as there is a Targayren man fit for the throne, but I doubt that law puts non-Targayren males before Targayren females; that wouldn't made sense; why would the Targayren create a law like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 A woman can't inherit the Iron Throne herself, but she can pass her claim to her male descendants.Rhaegar, Aegon and Viserys are dead, Dany has no son.Aerys is dead and had no brothers.Jaeharys had two children, both dead (Aerys and his queen)Aegon V had two sons and a daughter, Duncan (dead and line extinguished), Jaeharys and Rhaelle.Rhaelle married into Baratheon and is Stannis grandmother.Therefore Stannis inherits from Aegon V with everybody male having a better claim dead.Why does Stannis think that her daughter, Shireen, is supposed to inherit the Iron Throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saci Targaryen Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations. (See also Daena Targaryen, Daeron II). The war is the subject of the song "The Dance of the Dragons'Well, there's a technical mistake right there. Agnatic Primogeniture means that women are automatically excluded from inheritance. It would be more accurate to say that their law migrated from "Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture" to "Agnatic Primogeniture". If anyone cares, this is the wikipedia article describing different types of european succession laws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture#Agnatic_primogeniture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Cersei sat there literally.As regent. Her power comes through her children. Once they are dead or if they were proven to not be Baratheons then she loses her right to rule. It seems that in the Targaryen dynasty men were chosen to be regents.A king or queen regnant can rule in their own right. Their children do not give them power.If a queen consort is lucky she can influence her husband.Anyways, we don't know how strict the Targ law is. Is a female only behind all male heirs in the main line or does it include related branches like Baratheon, Martell, and Blackfyre?The Targaryen succession goes like this: Targaryen->Baratheon->Martell->Blackfyre.If Dany only goes after males in the main line she could be first if Aegon was proven to be a Blackfyre and Jon was never proven to be alegitimate Targaryen and remained bound to his vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I dont understand, whats your point? Is the wiki wrong? LOL your argument is so weak.You cannot use wiki as a source. It's not reliable, since anyone is allowed to edit it. I need evidence from the books or any of the author's material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The point people are trying to make is that the laws dont matter and force does. This is correct, de jure rule means nothing without defacto however you cant say this and then in the next sentence say anyone is a usurper or has no right. This is called being a hypocrite.You cannot use wiki as a source. It's not reliable, since anyone is allowed to edit it. I need evidence from the books or any of the author's material.The wiki comes from the authors material. Besides, did you not just say laws dont matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 By the way, even if a woman couldn't ever claim the Iron Throne, any child Dany had would have better rights than the Baratheon (who get their rights through the female line), so Dany could claim the throne in the name of her future children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It's not like Dany will have inherited the throne. It will be hers by conquest, and then she will be able to decree how the throne will be passed down legally (she will be the one making the laws and enforcing them). If she actually conquers Westeros. She might not be able to fit it in to her busy schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The point people are trying to make is that the laws dont matter and force does. This is correct, de jure rule means nothing without defacto however you cant say this and then in the next sentence say anyone is a usurper or has no right. This is called being a hypocrite.The wiki comes from the authors material. Besides, did you not just say laws dont matter?Well, can you point me to the direction of this so-called material?By the way, if you wanna discuss Daenerys supposedly hypocrisy, there is a thread for that already. Let's not derail this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Also, the Baratheon dynasty would be different than the Targaryen dynasty so the strict salic laws may not apply to them.In Myrcella's case, the regent would just try to rule through her.Jeor Mormont told Jon that the Great Council passed over Prince Daeron's daughter for being female and a lackwit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Why does Stannis think that her daughter, Shireen, is supposed to inherit the Iron Throne?Because Stannis and House Baratheon follow Andal law, not Targaryen law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Well, can you point me to the direction of this so-called material?Can point me toward the material that says a targ female can rule?No? Thats because it has never happened before, dany would be the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Because Stannis and House Baratheon follow Andal law, not Targaryen law.Which law does the Iron Throne follow? Is it Targaryen or Andal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Well, can you point me to the direction of this so-called material?By the way, if you wanna discuss Daenerys supposedly hypocrisy, there is a thread for that already. Let's not derail this one.The Great Council, passing over females. The Dance of Dragons, once in a Jaime chapter in KL, then from Stannis, calling Rhaenyra a traitor despite being daughter, sister and mother to lawful kngs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Which law does the Iron Throne follow? Is it Targaryen or Andal?Depends which House sits it. House Targaryen => Targaryen law. House Baratheon => Andal law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Can point me toward the material that says a targ female can rule?No? Thats because it has never happened before, dany would be the first.*facepalm*No comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The Wiki entry on Targaryen inheritance practices is useful.Two points though. 1) It refers to "practice" - implication being that this is something the Targs chose to do, not something that was necessarily binding.2) It seems relatively clear that *if* Cersei's children were legitimate, then Myrcella would be accepted as the heir. So the inheritance would have run Robert > Joff >Tommen > Myrcella. That suggests that the Targ inheritance practices certainly do nothing to bind other monarchs - with standard primogeniture returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 During the dance with dragons a female tried for the throne, she lost. From that time forward no woman can sit the throne. Dany could be a queen, but she cant rule westeros.I don't think Dany has to hold to that particular tradition if she doesn't want to. Why? Because she has dragons and if she does conquer Westeros and sit the iron throne, as head of a new dynasty she can set which ever rules she wants for succession. If it were a matter of assuming the throne within the former Targ structure I would agree with you, but Dany effectively has a tabula rasa when it comes to how she wants to reestablish her house. So I think the answer to the OP's question is two fold, previously a woman could not sit the throne in her own right, but that may not be the case anymore if it is a woman who reestablishes the house. Particularly if it is a woman with dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 By the way, if you wanna discuss Daenerys supposedly hypocrisy, there is a thread for that already. Let's not derail this one.I was calling YOU a hypocrite not dany.And your argument is hilarious, "Dany is the rightful queen" No, a female cannot rule. "Laws dont matter hur dur, only force matters" and then, "show me were it says that" I already have the fact that you choose to ignore it is not on me its on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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