The Pink Letter is a forgery by Alliser Thorne

[Jon Reborn]

When the commander at Eastwatch takes the ships north to attempt a rescue, he leaves a sympathetic to Thorne man in charge. Is it possible that Thorne took shelter in Eastwatch shortly after leaving Castle Black on his ranging? I would think so. From there he can make a trek to Winterfell, even in the storm, and back. The reason he may have done so is to ensure that the Warden of the North would not object to he and a handful of conspirators taking action against Jon. At Winterfell he has the opportunity to talk with Ramsay and Roose, and observe Abel. I don't think that anti-Stark factions are not in communication, as most seem to think. We even witness Roose and Tywinn exchanging raven mail, but are not let in that they are communicating with each other to plan the Red Wedding. Thorne setting up to assassinate Jon would require some support from outside the Night's Watch.

This is could work I think. But, if Thorne has been to Winterfell, that makes him a candidate for the Hooded Man again in my mind.

If he has gone to the trouble to elude or kill the rangers he was with, get through the Wall, and travel to Winterfell, that moves him from a conspirator to one of the main architects if the (attempted) assassination.

I've gone back and forth between Thorne being the Hooded Man or having forged the Pink Letter. Maybe he was just involved in writing the Pink Letter. That would seem to make Thorne and Ramsey the people behind the letter and the attack on Jon.

[Jayce]

Ramsay wrote it. It'd be a travesty to his character if it turns out he did not.

Surely it would be a bigger travesty if Ramsey did write it considering it wasn't written in blood and did not include a piece of Mance or one of the spearwives as a token?

[Ser Lepus]

Surely it would be a bigger travesty if Ramsey did write it considering it wasn't written in blood and did not include a piece of Mance or one of the spearwives as a token?

I think Ramsey has lost the battle, and is on the run, and is trying to trick Jon with the letter into giving him people he can use as hostages (the letter is Ramsey's, but it doesn't include a piece of skin because he has no prisioners to take it from).

[andrew_]

I think Ramsey has lost the battle, and is on the run, and is trying to trick Jon with the letter into giving him people he can use as hostages (the letter is Ramsey's, but it doesn't include a piece of skin because he has no prisioners to take it from).

Thats incorrect, I've read a Stannis chapter from the new book which indicates Ramsey and his daddy are still holed up in winterfell

[Ser Lepus]

Thats incorrect, I've read a Stannis chapter from the new book which indicates Ramsey and his daddy are still holed up in winterfell

I think you should use spoiler tags for that.

And I`m quite sure that Stannis chapter happens before the ADWD epilogue. The books don't follow an strict chronological order, many things in ADWD happen before or at the same time than AFFC.

[andrew_]

its not much of a spoiler though? oh well, my apologies. SPOILER I think it depends on how long it would take for the guy from the Iron Bank to show up at Stannis's camp, when did he leave Castle Black?

[Ser Lepus]

its not much of a spoiler though? oh well, my apologies. SPOILER I think it depends on how long it would take for the guy from the Iron Bank to show up at Stannis's camp, when did he leave Castle Black?

GRRM doesn't like to go into too much detail about travel distances and times, but Theon escapes just before the Frey and Manderly hosts go out to fight Stannis, and

Theon and Jeyne arrive to Stannis' camp before the battle, so the first of Theon's TWOW chapters happens soon after the last of his ADDW chapters.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Thorne as pink wax letter author & sender doesn't pass the smell test in my opinion.

Language in the letter was an excellent if not perfect Ramsay facsimile.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Why did I never consider this as a possibility before? "Bastard" is Thornes favorite word, for starts. We know he was one of Janos Slynts cronies along with Marsh and the other guys who betrayed Jon, so there's a very strong possibility he was in on that with them, plotting Jons demise since their beloved leader was executed. Of course as of right now we don't know exactly where he is, which would give Jon even less reason to question the identity of the author.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Thorne as pink wax letter author & sender doesn't pass the smell test in my opinion.

Language in the letter was an excellent if not perfect Ramsay facsimile.

My sentiments exactly, Thorne being the author has some shock value, but when held up to scrutiny, well lets just say GRRM would have a time explaining how he masterminded and carried out such a grand conspiracy. If he did, then I'm for Allister Thorne as the next commander of the NW. This would mean he is extremely well connected, resourceful, and intelligent...

I think that Mance Rayder, Ramse, or both is more likely due to the reasons stated upthread.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The letter is designed to sound like Ramsay,the reader is meant to believe it is Ramsay.Because it was written by someone who has observed Ramsay at close quarters,-Mance.

Mance is a singer and actor,the type who can pick up on the mannerisms of others quickly.I have no doubt he can write,he would have been taught as a boy,for the possibility of becoming a steward in the NW.

But certain phrases in the letter are pure Mance.

"I'm done with these bloody fools".Rattleshirt tapped the ruby at his wrist."Ask your red witch,bastard."

"No",the wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth."He burned the man he had to burn,for all the world to see."

Both from ADWD.And there are many more through the books.

But why would Mance pretend to be Ramsay?I think Mance's motives are to get Jon to Winterfell where he belongs and to let the wildlings know their king is still alive.

He knows Jon won't leave the Wall unless sorely provoked,so that's what he does.

I like this. I think he wants to get Jon into those damn crypts. I refuse to believe that his wearing a Raven Winged Helm when Jon meet's him is a coincidence.

[redriver]

I like this. I think he wants to get Jon into those damn crypts. I refuse to believe that his wearing a Raven Winged Helm when Jon meet's him is a coincidence.

I think that's part of it.And we all want to know what is so terrifying for Jon down there-could it be his ancestor the Night's King?

I'm also thinking Winterfell is a natural source of Dragonglass.

[Net-Viper X]

Here is a theory to add, that is if it hasn't been mentioned already on the last pages. It explains the Maesters ink and the wax without seal.

Bowen Marsh received the letter some time earlier and decided to hang onto it until they decided how to handle the Jon issue. They opened the letter and read the contents, then made a copy of the letter with a few subtle changes to maximize Jons reaction so he would be sure to go off the deep end and give them their justification in killing him. Then they sealed the copy by re-melting the wax, and took it to Jon when they were ready to act.

Ramsey probably was far too pressed for time with Stannis poised to crush him to bother tanning a piece of human skin into leather and including it with the letter, and he has no relatives of Jon's to flay skin from for the desired effect anyway. Flaying Mance or a spear wife would make no matter to Jon after all, he obviously doesn't give a shit about them or he wouldn't have sent them on a suicide mission to Winterfel in the first place.

Casting the theory of the copied letter aside, the above reason for the un-included skin could still apply. The ink could be explained by the desperate situation and Ramsey was dictating the letter to a Maester in haste while he was preparing to hold the wall against Stannis and directing his troops to positions.

[Dyntia]

Here is a theory to add, that is if it hasn't been mentioned already on the last pages. It explains the Maesters ink and the wax without seal.

Bowen Marsh received the letter some time earlier and decided to hang onto it until they decided how to handle the Jon issue. They opened the letter and read the contents, then made a copy of the letter with a few subtle changes to maximize Jons reaction so he would be sure to go off the deep end and give them their justification in killing him. Then they sealed the copy by re-melting the wax, and took it to Jon when they were ready to act.

I guess that could work. However I don't understand one thing: When they withhold the letter for some time and copied it - why did they kill him the way they did? They attacked him in the night like some (badly trained) assassins. The assassination puts them at risks, because it looks like a clear betrayal to everyone else. If they really faked the letter Jon receives, I would expect them to act smarter afterwards. Why kill Jon with daggers in the dark and not the way they started it? With words and intrigues?

Ramsey probably was far too pressed for time with Stannis poised to crush him to bother tanning a piece of human skin into leather and including it with the letter, and he has no relatives of Jon's to flay skin from for the desired effect anyway. Flaying Mance or a spear wife would make no matter to Jon after all, he obviously doesn't give a shit about them or he wouldn't have sent them on a suicide mission to Winterfel in the first place.

Casting the theory of the copied letter aside, the above reason for the un-included skin could still apply. The ink could be explained by the desperate situation and Ramsey was dictating the letter to a Maester in haste while he was preparing to hold the wall against Stannis and directing his troops to positions.

I agree with the skin-part. However I like to add the following: IIRC Jon has already received a letter written by Ramsay once, back when Asha got hers. Back then he refers to the blood the letter was written with as ink. So the letter was maybe written in blood after all and Jon just don't tell us in his chapter. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

[Lord of Cheese]

If its Mance who has written the letter, then we have to assume that Stannis has won the battle, or has been killed and Manderly's men have won.

Last I recall is that the spear wives are all dead. Mance would surely have been apprehended. It has to be game over for Ramsey and Roose and the Freys if Mance is alive and able to write a letter and have it sent.

I concede there are some Mancisms in the letter.

But yeah... Have to wait and see. :)

[redriver]

If its Mance who has written the letter, then we have to assume that Stannis has won the battle, or has been killed and Manderly's men have won.

Last I recall is that the spear wives are all dead. Mance would surely have been apprehended. It has to be game over for Ramsey and Roose and the Freys if Mance is alive and able to write a letter and have it sent.

I concede there are some Mancisms in the letter.

But yeah... Have to wait and see. :)

I picture Mance having sent it as soon as he heard "Arya" had escaped and perhaps the letter was pre-written.

Not sure all the spearwives were dead,two or three perhaps.

At that stage the outcome of the battle would have been unclear to Mance,but getting some extra support from his wildlings and Jon would have been one of the motives of the letter.

A crackpot notion is that Mance has the glamour "tech" from Mel,has killed Ramsay or Roose and is masquerading as one or the other. :eek:

But then again,maybe not.

[Jon Reborn]

Why did I never consider this as a possibility before? "Bastard" is Thornes favorite word, for starts. We know he was one of Janos Slynts cronies along with Marsh and the other guys who betrayed Jon, so there's a very strong possibility he was in on that with them, plotting Jons demise since their beloved leader was executed. Of course as of right now we don't know exactly where he is, which would give Jon even less reason to question the identity of the author.

I believe that Thorne also claims something along the lines of "you'll see me again, bastard" before he goes off on his ranging. Perhaps a bit of foreshadowing?

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

Ramsey wrote it out of anger, childishness and impatience.

Mance is alive, hiding in the crypts, maybe not hiding but searching.

Ramsey caught a spearwife cut her up and she told, Abel=Mance

He said Mance was dead, cus its more fuel on the fire for Jon. It may not be as big a deal as say Arya, but its not like Jon hates Mance, his death would make him feel somthing on top of all else.

Ramsey calls him a bastard, because Ramsey is free to use the word now that he is no longer one, he probably finds it fun to say to others.

I want my Reek back is only somthing the Ramsey would say, he assumes Jeyne will be talking him to the wall, to her "brother"

It sounds like a letter written by an angry and sick little kid(i know he isnt a little kid), which is what Ramsey is like in my mind.

[Deaner]

The theory that the letter was written by Thorne only works if Thorne had been at Winterfell at some point. It is highly unlikely that he could have somehow stumbled upon the information that Mance was not dead, but trying to rescue Arya at Winterfell. If he had gone to Winterfell, however, he would have been able to identify Mance, as he was present at 'his' execution. But there are many points that don't add up, among them a motive, a way to come back from beyond the Wall unnoticed, and the mention of 'my Reek'.

After we know the casting decision for Mance Rayder on the show, I am more convinced than ever that the letter was written by Ramsay. I can't imagine the show people would want to go through with the plot in ADWD with this old guy they casted, so I think they asked GRRM if he had any more major plans for the character, and he probably said no, he is going to die at Winterfell anyway (so in the show he will die in the battle for the Wall). The letter fits with what we saw happening at the end of Theon I in ADWD. It fits Ramsay in style and tone. It would be a ridiculous plot device if everything it said was a lie (and we know the part where the letter is wrong will most likely concern Stannis, so there has to be some truth to it) or used in a complicated conspiracy on top of the stabbing (you can either have an elaborate conspiracy or an attack, but to come up with a conspiracy based on a letter no one even knows will ever be read aloud is not very convincing, and as a plot element it is rendered even more useless if it is followed by a seperate conspiracy to attack and kill Jon). The letter makes sense if we assume that Ramsay is trying to get his fake wife back by threatening Jon, and that he was fooled by Stannis into believing he is dead, with the fake magic sword as proof.

Actually I think the Casting may work in an opposite manner than you described. Ciarán Hinds was a great actor in the HBO series Rome, which by looking at GRRM's web page was one of his favorite series. One of mine too, I was pissed when it went off the air and the lead character ended up on.... Grays Anatomy!

Good theory OP. I had just thought of it too and did a search on here to see if anyone had mentioned it. Thorne would probably have to be in Winterfell, like you mentioned maybe the hooded man. It doesnt mean he is working with Ramsey though. He could have just gotten some pink wax from the Bolton's supplies and then forged the letter and sent the raven himself. He would have recognized Mance of course and would have know everything else in the letter. His motive? He hates Jon and also believes Jon is destroying the NW.

I dont know. I had the feeling when I first read the book that Thorne was going to come back as a wight, but it would be more interesting if he wrote the letter.

[Catacombs]

I've posted my NW deadenders theory elsewhere, but I thought it fit with this thread--so he it is:

I do not think the Pink letter was written by Ramsey. There are details in it that he is very unlikely to know and pretty unlikely to mention even if he did. The letter serves him no tactical benefit. Ramsey is a character known for being underhanded, deferential to his Father, sneaky and not very bright when it comes to politics. The Pink Letter lets it all hang out and there’s no way Roose would approve a letter that announces to the world and the North that Ramsey has lost his bride. And if Roose is dead, then Ramsey would have other things on his plate than writing Jon Snow a letter demanding ‘the wildling babe’. Yes, Ramsey is filled with psychotic rage, but the letter is too carefully crafted for it to be a product of that rage.

Every line of the letter is crafted to test Jon Snow and move him to openly break his vows as a brother of the Night’s Watch. I think the letter was a test crafted by some co-conspirators at the NW—think of them as a group of NW deadenders who wanted to stop the rapid change being brought about by Jon Snow and King Stannis.

Bowen Marsh and Wick Wittlestick were clearly involved, but I suspect that there were others at Castle Black, Eastwatch and elsewhere, including Glendon Hewett, Septon Cellador, Clydas and Alliser Thorne. It is possible that one of the NW men sent to guide Tycho Nestoris to Stannis could have been involved (especially if they were traveling with Ravens as many Brothers on a mission seem to do). The focus of the NW had been fighting the Wildlings for a very long time. The idea of fighting The Others has been lost. The wildlings were the enemy. For the NW deadenders, the Others were seen as a the secondary threat. Even the recent events of ASoIaF would do little to change the viewpoint of NW members who never saw a wight or an Other—a trait most of the co-conspirators share. They are also a group who saw Stannis as a rebel and Tommen Baratheon as the rightful King.

The letter was like a detective playing his hunch in an old mystery novel—design to smoke out the ‘guilty’. It was written based on some facts they knew and some ideas that they only suspected to be true. Parts of the letter were guesses. If Jon took no action based on the letter, then I don’t think he would have been stabbed. But if Jon did act, then the letter was crafted to provide the conspirators a justification for their betrayal.

Everything about the letter benefitted the NW deadenders—even its timing. It arrived just before the mission to Hardhome is about to announced. Molly tell’s Jon that “Clydas don’t look his proper self … he’s more white than pink, if you get my meaning … and he’s shaking” when he arrives with the letter—a letter sealed with wax and only the word ‘Bastard’ on the outside. That would not explain Clydas, but delivering a letter that never traveled by a raven might.

So, let’s break down the letter:

Bastard

Yes, Ramsey might have written this, but it is also how all the NW deadenders think of John. As for the handwriting: Marsh and his stewards would have had access to the letter Ramsey sent announcing his marriage to Arya. Clydas saw it and there is not a mention of its destruction. If the letter was with Jon’s things, a steward would have had access to it—especially if Marsh asked for it.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

The “smashed in seven days” may have come from Septon Cellador to honor The Seven—I doubt that it has any ring of truth. Clydas would have heard Maester Aemon’s concerns about the sword. While Ramsey might have said ‘False king’ and ‘red whore’, it would also be how the NW deadenders think of Stannis and Mel. The opening graph would give Jon pause, doubts and fears for his sister and the future.

Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

The heads on the wall and the invitation to see them are crafted to feed Jon’s doubts and fears. I suspect that the section on Mance is a guess by the NW deadenders. They know that Mel does sorcery. They know that ‘Rattleshirt’ left. I suspect they know that he left with six spearwives from Molestown. This party would need provisions—provisions of the NW. I think Marsh would make note of that loss and ask questions. In the end the conspirators would learn enough to make an educated guess. [How? Somebody told. Somebody always tells.]

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

The “I want my bride back” line is designed to fill Jon with both hope and dread—hope that Arya somehow got away and dread that she is in mortal danger. Mance in a cage covered by the skins of the spearwives is crafted for a twofold purpose. One to make it sound like a Bolton and two, to confirm the guess that Jon kept Mance alive, sent him to save his sister and betrayed the NW. Everybody knows the Bolton legends concerning flaying folks alive, but more than that, the NW has had a guest who knows of (and may have met) Ramsey in the past. Cregan Karstark was in the ice cells. Wick Wittlestick and the stewards were his jailers. I suspect that Cregan would have told them anything he knew if it might harm Lord Snow.

I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess.

I can’t see Ramsey making any of these requests if Roose was still alive and only one of them if Roose was dead. The Queen, her daughter, her men, Mel, Val and all the wildlings are all folks that the NW deadenders want to encourage to leave The Wall. This line seems design to encourage them to get away before “Ramsey” comes for them. It also seems design to encourage Jon to act—and any action because of this letter would trigger his assassination.

I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

For me, this last graph confirms that Ramsey did not write the letter. The reference to “black crows” is a giveaway as is the bit about the ‘wildling babe’. As for the “I want my reek”, I think that as the elder son, Cregan Karstark would have been with his father at the Dreadfort when Ramsey showed off Theon/Reek to all those present. Cregan’s father was on the dais with Ramsey, but the Hall was filled. And if by some chance Cregan wasn’t there, his father would have told him about it. It is completely plausible that the NW deadenders would have known about Reek and included him in the letter, especially if the Brothers traveling with the banker and later, fake Arya were part of the conspiracy. I think conversations with Cregan was where they learned that Reek is Theon (but the Brothers traveling with the banker & fake Arya would have learned that as well). I think the Reek mention was included in case Jon also knew that he was Theon from Cregan or another source. If they thought Jon might know Reek is Theon it would have been another prod in the letter to get him to break his vows.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

The title is designed to kick Jon in the gut and it worked.

I think the idea that a group of NW Deadenders crafted the letter is a credible theory. It could be wrong, but every element of the letter could have been known to this group and they had a strong motive to send the letter.

Now, I could be wrong. I stand to be corrected. And I will be when WoW comes out. Still, I don’t think the Pink Letter ever took a ride on raven’s wings.

Cheers